Strangest Tire Question EVERRR...

Strangest Tire Question EVERRR...
Has anyone ever calculated or estimated the area, in square inches/square cm, of the *surface of the inside* of a tire?
Does at least an average exist out there, for broad categories: passenger car, SUV-light truck, and commercial truck?
Just curious, Thanks!
Reply to
thekmanrocks
Tire manufacturers would have this as it would be the same as the inner build die they use when laying up a tire. However the number would vary a lot because of the myriad of sizes, Take a 205 75R 15, it would have a larger surface area than a 205 60R 15 simply due to the aspect ratio change.
Reply to
Steve W.
:
What tools do we have to solve the problem? o Let's start with shape & terminology:
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That gives us these perhaps relevant terms: o Tread width o Section height o Aspect ratio o Rolling circumference etc. Where for now I'll ignore there's a difference between o free (i.e., unloaded), and, o loaded
Then, using this tire-size calculator:
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ignoring sig fig approximations (so I can just cut & paste numbers)...
Assume a P200/50R15 for easy numbers & using only the 1st URL above: o Diameter = 582mm (22.9") o Width = 200mm (7.9") o Sidewall = 99mm (3.9") o Circum. = 1,824mm (71.8") o Revs/Mile = 882 Also noting: o Rim diameter = 381mm (15")
Assuming the carcass inside & outside surface is "similar" in both shape & surface area, we easily arrive at a gross _approximation_ of: o Tread area = ~200mm wide times ~1,824mm around = ~364,800?sq mm o Sidewall area = ~99mm times ~1,824mm around times 2 = ~361,152sq mm Which calculates to... o Total U shaped carcass = ~364,800?sq mm + ~361,152sq mm Which comes to roughly ~725,952?sq mm
Given the sidewall area is probably more accurately done with donuts:
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Where the terms appear to be: o Diameter of the Whole Area = 582mm o Diameter of Inside Area = 381mm Which calculates out to: o Area = 152,023.9sq mm o Outer Perimeter = 1,828.4mm o Inner Perimeter = 1,196.9mm o Total Perimeter = 1,196.9mm
Using these numbers for sidewall area in the previous calculation: o Tread area = ~200mm wide times ~1,824mm around = ~364,800?sq mm o Sidewall area = ~152,023.9sq mm times 2 = ~304,047.8?sq mm o Total U shaped carcass = ~364,800?sq mm + ~304,047.8?sq mm Which comes to roughly ~668,847.8?sq mm
In summary, and knowing the inside dimensions must be smaller than the outside dimensions, I'd guess it's around 600,000sq mm to 700,000sq mm.
But that's only a gross approximation. o How much accuracy does the OP need?
Reply to
Arlen Holder
Arlen Holder - wow! You went to town on the math!
How precise? Ohh, just an average. It's something I'm working on, so an average sized automobile tire is all I'm asking about. 215/6R16ish.
Thanks for the hard work though.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
Arlen Holder:
So 725,000 sq mm approximates 1,224 sq in. internal area of your example tire.
If a particular vehicle requires 32psi cold air pressure in that tire, that equates to 32 * 1,224sq. in = 39,168 total pounds of air pressure against the interior wall of that tire! Wow!
If we increase that 32psi figure by 10%, that's 35.2psi.
35.2 x 1,224 = 39,564 total pounds of pressure against the wall of that same tire. An increase of only 1.01% in the total pressure against it.
So much for my theory that each additional pound of air pressure exponentiates the total pressure imposed on the inside of that tire.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
That's not how physics works. Pneumatic pressure acts equally on all surfaces. For 35psi, it's 35psi on each part of the surface of your closed figure- 35psi on the tire, 35psi on the rim - but 35psi only.
Reply to
AMuzi
AMuzi:
Well, to me, 'per square inch' means exactly that. 35lbs per every square inch of the tire cavity and outer edge of accompanying rim or wheel surface.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
:
I just noticed something interesting when it comes to 'averages'. o All you need is the tread width & the aspect ratio & rim size.
That is... o For a 40 series tire, it's 2x40, i.e., tread area times 180% o For a 50 series tire, it's 2x50, i.e., tread area times 200% o For a 60 series tire, it's 2x60, i.e., tread area times 220% etc.
Notice an aspect ratio of, oh, say, 50 is 50% of the tread width. o So the surface area is a function of the tread width & aspect ratio.
If the tire is a 50-series tire, the sidewall area is approximately 100% more than the tread area (i.e., 50% times 2 sidewalls).
For a 60 series tire, the sidewall area is approximately 120% more than the tread area (i.e., 60% times 2 sidewalls).
In short, for a quick mental calculation all you need is the tread area and the sidewall-to-tread ratio, where the tread area is simply the width times the circumference of the tire.
So, for your P215/60R16, this calculator tells me:
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Diameter = 26.2" o Width = 8.5" o Sidewall = 5.1" o Circumference = 82.1" o Revs/Mile = 771
The area of the tread would be its width time the circumference: o Tread area = 8.5" times 26.2" = 222.7 sq inches
Since it's a 60-series tire, the sidewall area is 120% of that. o Sidewall area = 222.7sq inches time 120% = 267.24 sq inches
In summary, you just take the tread area and multiply it by the percent: o For a 40 series tire, surface area is tread area times 180% o For a 50 series tire, surface area is tread area times 200% o For a 60 series tire, surface area is tread area times 220% etc.
Reply to
Arlen Holder
Arlen Holder:
So rounded off we'll just say 270 sq. inch of area inside the avg. passenger tire. I think something was wrong with that online calculator I was using last night to convert square mm to square inches. For a similar tire I was getting, if I recall,1,220-something square inches? I suspected something was off!
So the air inside the tire inflated to 35psi is pressing down on each one of those 270 square inches with 35 lbs of force. So a more sane 9,450lbs of total pressure on the inside wall of that tire. Probably closer to 7,000ish if you consider that side of the rim which completes the inside of that total air cavity at each corner of our daily vehicles.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
I don't know but it cannot be 270 square inches ( which is roughly 10" x 27". I can see a ten inch width bead to bead but the circumference is way beyond 27 inches.
Regardless of arithmetic, the pneumatic (or hydraulic, formulae are the same for these purposes) pressure at every place within a closed figure is equal and all of it will be 35psi.
Reply to
AMuzi
AMuzi:
1,270 square inches. My tablet for some reaaon is not transmitting every character I type, and is also changing some words and characters.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
Entering footprint into the argument. My car's GVW is 3800 lbs so each tire supports 950 lbs (ideally). If a my tire has a footprint of 6"x6" = 36" sq, and if each sq in has a pressure of 36 psi, then the psi total of the footprint is 1296 lbs. Oddly enough my car tire's max load rating is 1295 lbs. Push on it with an area and it will push back equally. The rest of the tire area is at 36 psi and is irrelevant since it does not support anything.
Reply to
Paul in Houston TX
_______ Oh really? Last time I checked, a tire is a complete unit, with all of its parts working together to support the vehicle, help maintain traction, and help bring it to a stop.
That 36psi is pressing against every square inch of the inside of the tire and the outer circumferential face of the wheel or rim.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
Xeno:
Of course the tire sidewalls will slowly buckle! Common sense! They're the vertical component of a tire. But what you seem to want to believe is that the only part of a tire that matters is that which touches the ground. In your world, sidewalls don't exist. In your world, a vehicle drives by and all you see are the treads and the rims.
It doesn't work that way. A tire - all of it - and the wheel or rim it's attached to, are together a SYSTEM: of support, of absorption, of compliance, and of traction during a variety of vehicle dynamics.
And whether a fully mounted, inflated, and balanced wheel/tire combo is sitting, waiting to be put on a car, or is between that car and the road already, the air inside places pressure on ALL interior surfaces of the cavity created by tire plus rim. Science!
Reply to
thekmanrocks
You have me 100% wrong. I was not disagreeing with you. My point was that the sidewalls also have pressure acting on them and that helps keeps them where they need to be. As well, the poster to whom you responded omitted to mention, in his detailing of pressure acting at the contact patch, is that it also acts in the upwards direction on the inner rim surface opposite the inner rim surface. Tyres are not designed by just looking at the contact patch to determine the inflation pressure hence the load carrying capacity.
Having been a mechanic for over 50 years, my view of a tyre is very different from yours. I look at it as a sub-component of the vehicle, its relationship to steering and suspension and, most importantly, handling.
Two primary factors determine the load carrying capacity of a tyre, the load and the inflation pressure. If you want to increase the load, you need to increase the pressure. This is well known and is included in vehicle owners manuals. The rub here is that there are many other forces acting on tyres, lateral and centrifugal forces being just two, and each needs to be considered, especially in relation to speed. Therefore the service use of the tyre becomes important as well.
See above.
Well aware of that. Not my point. BTW, a tyre waiting to be put on a car is *different* to a tyre on a car at 100 mph. Think heat and what that does to a tyre and the pressure inside it.
Reply to
Xeno
:
I have never been a mechanic (I'm an engineer & scientist), but I do agree with Xeno, that heat is (almost) everything when it comes to rubber tires. o Speed is heat o Load is heat o Inflation is heat etc.
Reply to
Arlen Holder
Xeno, Arlen:
My postulation is more a matter of wording:
We do not put "33 pounds of air" in a given tire. We put 33 pounds PER SQUARE INCH in that tire. Ergo, that volume of air is applying 33lbs of force to EVERY SQUARE INCH of the inside of that tire & rim face combination.
Reply to
thekmanrocks
Correct, it applies 33 PSI of force to every square inch. However that is the total force per square inch that the air applies. You cannot add each inch up and say that number is the total pressure applied.
It is no different than atmospheric pressure which is around 14.696 PSI. Using your version of physics every human being would be crushed to death by that pressure if you consider the average human male has 22.173 square feet of surface area.
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(Silberberg)/05%3A_Gases_and_the_Kinetic-Molecular_Theory/5.02%3A_Gas_Pressure_and_Its_Measurement
Reply to
Steve W.

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