Wankel-Electric Hybrid?

Sep 27, 2005 27 Replies

Not true, at all. For DC generators, all that matters is how fast the wires move under the pole pieces. Slower prime movers just mean that the generators have to have a larger radius. I have seen pictures of early generators that were several feet across, with what looked like a spoked wheel for a rotor. Not that the upper speed of a reciprocating steam engine was an issue, as a steam locomotive had no difficulty hitting a hundred miles an hour on straight level track with a short enough rebound time.

The really wide generators were needed for hydraulic turbines, as they were quite large and only spun at about 60 to 240 rpm (one to four hertz).

AC generators deal with a low mechanical frequency by multplying the mechanical frequency by a large number of pole pairs to get a useful electrical frequency. I have seen photos of small angle segments of large generators for hydraulic turbines that implied more than thirty poles (my father gave me his copy of the Westinghouse Handbook of Generation and Distribution, and most of its information is still valid[my copy is dated

1950]).

There were two reasons steam turbines blew away reciprocating steam engines: Turbines and their generators were smaller Turbines shook less and their vibrations did not carry as far

Here's a picture of an old ASEA (1910) alternator:

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apparently rotating at 150 rpms as can be seen from this:
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notice the not so kosher logo ASEA (now ABB) used in 1910 ;-)

I've been on a tour through this old power station about 30 years ago, and power stations from that time was a piece of art!

Check out more pictures:

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I was specifically talking about AC generators. By the time the steam turbine was perfected, AC systems were the system of choice for big power systems, and they were trying to raise frequencies for various reasons. True, for DC systems rpm wasn't a problem, but Edison had lost the power wars, and AC was starting to dominate.

60% of the billions spent on R & D for gas turbines went to high temp. materials.

GE had a carbon-carbon turbine that could take high compression stoichiometric flame temperatures but if any O2 got near it it would burn up -- not a good material for real life aviation engines.

Materials science advances are more important than anything on earth so humanity is at the mercy of those voodoo witch doctors over at the mill or lab.

Bret Cahill

Not anyone can invent a good new engine. As the early vacuum engine engineers pointed out, "it takes a philosopher to design an engine."

Bret Cahill

But AC systems never needed to be geared up, either. A two pole, 60 Hz AC generator turns at 3600 rpm. A forty pole, 60 Hz AC generator turns at

180 rpm. The initial frequency standard of 25 Hz AC would have rotor speeds of 1500 and 75 Hz, respectively.

Low frequency systems have lower losses, but high frequency systems are smaller. The qualities of polyphase systems also embody a compromise. More phases transmit power more efficiently, but adding another phase adds another conductor to each transmission line. Two phase is better than single phase, three phase is better than two phase, but the additional costs of four phase power is not worth the additional cost.

Electricity generation was not the only use of early steam engines. Turbines were used on board ships even though the higher speed meant they had to *install* gearing for the slow speed propellers.

The turbine is much simpler to maintain, more robust wrt water induction, and packs more hp in a given space/weight. Regardless of the end shaft speed requirements, turbines were adopted for their cost and efficiency.

daestrom

I was referring to the use in AC power stations. Indeed the turbine was used in warships before power stations, and while the need for gearing was a slight drawback for ships, it was not for powerplants.

However, one thing about the gearing in ships- one needed at least a gear system for reverse anyway. Turbines could not be reversed in rotation while recips could.

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