VW Losses in North America

And he's got good content in there. Unlike, say, your post above.

As a person who has been a VW guy since I was a little kid in the 1960's, I am very concerned with what I read in these posts. I am ignorant as to how any car company can lose $5000 or $6400 on every car sold and still remain in business unless they are offsetting it in a different market. I know sales of VW's have declined for 4 years in a row, but I have a different theory than those who say they are junk and have a lousy dealership network. My dealership, Car City Volkswagen, in Eau Claire, Wisconsin is excellent. I believe the reason for declining sales is twofold: A) until the New Jetta was released earlier this year, VWoA had an aging line-up. They should bring models over here as timely as Europe gets them. The Golf V, for example, has been available over there for two years now. While the coilpack and window regulator issues were annoying, these are very minor compared to an engine or transmission failure, and the reputation of VW has been unfairly tarnished because of this. They are extremely reliable cars and will go 300,000+ miles if properly taken care of. A guy in my club has nearly half a million miles on a 1981 Rabbit. Sure, they have a few quirks, but what car doesn't? Consumer Reports always talks about how great Hondas are mechanically, but I welcome anyone on the staff to come to Wisconsin and see how they rust within about 3 years. $3000 worth of bodywork every couple of years, which is what it would require for a Honda to keep looking good in the hellish climate where I live, negates any advantage to mechanical excellence, in my opinion. B) The New Beetle was released in 1998 amid much fanfare. Older guys like me who grew up with the original Beetle were nostalgic, and the New Beetle was a pivotal car to get people back into showrooms. While we were there, we realized that we needed 4 doors, so we bought Jettas and Passats. Sales shot through the roof, and VWoA was enjoying the best sales numbers in thirty years. Then, the novelty of the New Beetle wore off, and for the past 4 years or so, sales are now falling out of the inflated stratosphere that VW enjoyed from 1999-2001. I think they will level off at around

200,000-225,000 annual sales in America, which is about where they were before the New Beetle came out. The New Passat is here, the New Golf will be here by spring, the New Beetle has been re-skinned a bit, and the Eos will be here, and I guarantee that VWoA's sales for 2006 will start to climb again, perhaps not to 2001 levels but they will be better than 2005, nevertheless. There are plenty of people devoted to the brand, despite what has been said. There is more competition now, and VW will never enjoy the success they had 40 years ago, but they will still be around.

When I lived in Eau Claire, Jim Carter Ford/VW was the local dealer. My service experiences there were not so good -- glad to hear the situation has improved!

Your post says it all. You are right, in everything you say, but you also completely support what I say.. Let me explain.. The losses are being offset by the rest of their production....and are acceptable, on purpose.. And I won't argue the merits of your dealership..But you won't make me believe that nothing bad ever happened to a customer , that the customer didn't think he deserved, either. However, I've never been there. But one good dealership doesn't outweigh the damage done by many bad dealerships.. And

I disagree. The quality cars do not rost in 10 years, even in worst conditions. Over here, Honda starts to show the first signs of rost in as little as ~6 years, in 12 years it is probably unsafe to drive anymore. My old Audi has 18 years and not a single point of rust. And it is not an exeption.

It is just a question of what they are willing to tolerate.

In fact, I would be willing to pay some $5k for some repairs coul be necessary, instead of being forced to throw _a lot_ of money for the whole new car jus because the old one is rusted away.

Don't know, the european hondas aren't known to be such a performers. After 10 years and 150k miles you usually must prepare for _major_ expensive repairs. The engine will probably be fine, but everyhing else...

Erm, could you elaborate on that one? Which VW model lasted only two years?

Golf? 1997-2004, 7 years. Passat? 1997-2005, 8 years.

I have got a different impressions: the japan cars are changing much more often.

Well, I wanted not to be jerked around by the dealership and VoA and told nothing was wrong with my car up until the warranty ran out. I will never buy a VW again. Too bad because I was gonna be a lifetime VW buyer. So, the save a few thousand (maybe) they have lost several car sales (and more from folks within my sphere of influence).

Oh, I loved my W8--and my dealership, until my car started having problems. That relationship went bad rather quickly. I just feel like they have jerked me around. Do you think I am goingt o go back for more? No.

You really are trying to skirt around the issues are'nt you?.. Your post has no merit, ..A whole huge post about how VWs are junk and how they have to fool uninformed people to buy them with clever advertising... and you say, that I wouldn't do body work, on a 10 year old rusty honda , if it cost

5000 bucks to fix, and it had 150,000 miles on it.. Nobody would .. They'd drive it for 50,000 more and sell it for 2000 bucks and buy a new one...or give it to their colege kids to destroy at school.... ALL cars rust, sitting on the lot.. Anyone can find rust somewhere, on any car, anywhere.. All manufacturers have rusty parts , in their plants, getting ready to be installed on new cars...And you Really don't know if a 2 year old Diesel Jetta with 81,000 miles with a broken timing belt , and out of warranty , is worth less then a 10 year old runs like new rusty Honda.........Let me explain it to you.... Apparently you don't know that the engine is destroyed and now must be paid for by the customer.....Warranty 80,000 miles, Timing belt change interval 105,000 miles, Belt breaks at 81,000 miles.. Cost to VW , ZERO, because we dont have to pay the dealer under warranty, even though we said it was good until 105,000 miles. .. Cost to dealer, another lost customer, but.... dealer makes a lot of dough changing an engine for

I am not employed by Volkswagen in any shape or form, and to claim that the brand has no repeat buyers and that it deliberately uses corrupt business practices to lure new ones is ludicrous. Yes, any car will rust in time, but certain brands will do so much sooner than others. VW/Audi has the best rust warranty in the business....12 years, unlimited mileage (I think). Yes, in certain models, a broken timing belt will wreck your engine. In my 2.0 gas Golf, this is not the case. It would merely stop until it was towed somewhere and replaced. Regardless,98% of diesel owners, according to you, will never have this problem. The only VW's that have 105,000 mile intervals are the V6 models, anyway (Passats, older Jettas & GTI's). The rest have 60,000 mile intervals. As for the other issue of model changes and updates, Honda as an example changes bodystyles much MORE often than VW. The average carbuyer has regressed to the old

1950's concept of planned obsolescence, and THIS is a big reason why VW sales have dropped, NOT because they are "junk." It took 6 years for the Jetta to change (1999-2005) while the Accord probably underwent 3 different changes during the same period, so this shoots your luring new, gullible, unsuspecting yuppies theory every 2 years in the foot. Volkswagen owners keep their cars longer than domestic owners because they LAST twice as long............I'd rather pay $20,000 for a Jetta that will last 15 years than $14,000 for a comparably equipped domestic that will be lucky to see 125,000 miles before everything's shot.

You said you were a VW guy, not me , and you also said YOUR DEALERSHIP.. Then you said,, MY dealership, Car city volkswagen,is excellent....Then you went on about the reasons there are declining sales, Then you went on about sales, and VWs new line up, and dealers expectations.,for the future. Then you rattled off some sales figures...If you dont work at the dealership, or your not an VW employee, why didnt you just say I owned some , and visit somebody elses dealership... but I dont really know much except what VW tells me in the news... You did'nt even know why US releases are about two years behind Europes. You said they should bring models here as timely as Europe gets them.... They can't . Because they have to build a plant here, and can't protect themselves , by limiting production... Other manufacturers run their plants at 70,80, 90 % and have to deliver, quality, value, and great dealer service. or close. VW runs their plant at 100% as much as possible, Refuses to add production, and artificcially protects themselves from the free market in the US..This allows them to offer high purchase cost, substandard dealer service, mediocre products, that cost more to own and operate over the life of the car... period.. You insinuate your position, your opinion, and twist my words by leaving out the facts, and omit whatever does'nt help you point of view.. I bring everything to the table, I did not say 98% of diesel owners will never have a problem with their car.. , you did... can you back that statement up...... Dream on... I said 2% of diesel owners will have timing belt failures before VW recommended change interval. 2% is too much..1/10 of 1% is too much.. Thats 1 car per 1000 sales, not 2 cars per 100 sales.. But now I'm dreaming... And all VWs since 1995 do not have 60,000 mile change intervals.. They have settled down now, about 10 years too late.. to retain a decades worth of lost customers, who paid for broken belts and engines out of warranty.. , But VW jockeyed around so much with the intervals since 95 sometimes changing every year.. They were trying to find a balance point , where they dont have pay to change belts,or engines, but not piss off to many customers either.. They did this to match their competitors warranty times, not because they wanted to.. because they had to, or lose to many sales.. But they didn' t want to pay for the repairs but pass them off to the customer.. Many of the remaining 98% of the owners will , and did have problems with other issues too. VW and you too, can dream all day about a

98% no problem rate with their cars.. Which isn't even acceptable to the other car manufacturers.. VWs are not actually as reliable as other cars,everyone knows that, but they tried to make it look like it on paper only.. So they could try , for a while to make some effort to pass unbiased , comparitive reports . This was in the 90's, But they had to back down when the news got a hold of the many unhappy customers who claimed that VWs estimates of ownership cost were way out of line.. HELL, VW does'nt even try now.. Now they offer Gen X Idiots commercials, or the old Farfegnugen. ...Let me tell you about VWs rust protection plan. It is pretty good, but they never pay for rust repairs, Want to know why... Because most owners sale their cars within 6 years, and get a new one.. Even VW owners buy another to get out from under the cost of ownership.. And the warranty applies to the original owner.. not the second owner.. You know how many times a VWdealer told a VW owner , its time to get a new one, because their current one is going to cost too much to maintain... I challenge you to step onto a VW dealers lot and find a 7 year old VW with the miles low enough to qualify for rust repairs. I guarantee that car will be sold as is, or with a limited dealer warranty, that will be drivetrain only, without the rust protection warranty.. I did'nt say VW lures gullible new car buyers every 2 years. You did, again.. .. its 2-6, and its variable, based on when they decide to replace their existing line up, or particular model, with another replacement. Then all their marketing and advertising applies... Specificly for you, since your trying very hard to skirt around the obvious.. Every new release of a new car lineup, however long it took.. is accompanied by the advertising and marketing I am refering too. Stupid Gen Xer's dimwits jumping around in an apartment , bothering their neighbors, until they have to move.. The commercial and all VWs commercials for the last 20 years, explain themselves.. I challenge you , again, to explain how that commercial, in any way, shape ,or form has anything to do with the type of car you are saying a VW is.. That commercial says, If your a dimwit, with a dimwit girlfriend, and you live in an expensive apartment, and don't even care about losing it by being an uncaring dimwit, who does'nt care about anyone else, and you dont care how much anything cost, and you want to jump around and destroy your possessions.. Come buy our car, because you're the dimwit for us.....It also says , We offer nothing of real value to you, because its not even important enough to make a commercial about our cars. Lets make commercials about our customer base. Unsuspecting, educated, intelligent Gen X dimwits.. Lets focus on everything but out cars.....Because our cars suck... They spend millions to do it.. , No they spend every penny they have, to sale cars to prospective, uninformed, educated, dimwits/ victims... Victims that won't be a victim twice, Because VW changes them from dimwits, into jaded VW car Owners.. Because their cars are sold on clever marketing, and nothing more.. Corruptable was a term I used for my feelings, and a customers feelings , who had to buy a Diesel engine 1000 miles out of warranty, because of a broken timing belt , that didnt make it to the VW recommended change interval.. My idea idea of corruptable, and businesses idea of corruptable are not the same.. And that applies to almost every business in America. Business is business, or to quote a very famous business man.. There are very few business rules or regulations in existance that business actually has to abide by..... You figure out who said it....

"Sills" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...

[snip]

Why do you waste your time and our bandwidth on writing like that?

If you expect people to read and understand what you're writing, then don't make it look more onerous to read than the fine print on a hire-purchase agreement.

Nobody will read it unless you make the effort to make it easy to read. You will only ever generate argument and confusion until you begin to structure your writing in a conventional manner to present a coherent point of view.

Why do you think so?

The size of your post is irrelevant, it just makes it extremely hard to read. "Junk" or not "junk" depends on your point of view which is not necessary is the universal and unquestionable truth.

I did not said that. I said, that _I_ would better spend some $5k over the time repairing some Jetta instead of being forced to buy a new car every 10 years and spend _much_ more. And even not getting the interrior of the same quality.

Timing belts dont break if maintained properly. The end of issue.

Go check your facts. There is not a single 4 cylinder TDI engine with such a intervals. 90000km or some 60000mi is the longest interval known to me. So, you can reasonably expect a broken belt at 81k.

So, the dealer doesn't know anything about his business. This way dealer get's what he deserves.

Oh, ok ;) Paranoia rules :)

It is the neglected maintenance. Things tend to break if not maintained. No?

I would not give such a car to my kids. I still want them to be alive.

Well, you are plain wrong here. Passat you mentioned was in production from 1988 till 1996. The golf was still the same Golf2, produced from

1984 until 1992. All the other cars were produced some ~8 years on average too, if you want, I could look up the exact years. Ok, the american market usually got them 1 year later, but it does not change anything. Yes, of course, each and every manufacturer does some "facelifts", which Passat got in ~1995 and 2001 (maybe a year later in USA), golf was facelifted in 1988, 1995 and 2000 (also maybe a year later in USA). But it is just a small cosmetic change, japan manufacturers usually do it every 2-3 years.

snipped-for-privacy@iname.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

well, first I don't really believe they're losing that much money at least not on the cars that the public is buying (Golf, Jetta, Passat). I think the bad switch for VW was the inclusion of the Phaeton and Touareg. That combined with the horrendous looks on their new models (Jetta and Passat) has definitely driven down sales. I am a Jetta owner and think the new Jetta is butt ugly, less economical and very close in looks to the Corolla. The Passat just seems a slightly bigger version of the same thing.

Couple that with the horrendous dealer service and you have a recipe for disaster.

The only way they can recoup losses is if they start bringing in more diesels.

This is a point the problems begins. If you want your car to look cooler and drive better, you need to invest in R&D. If you do that, you cant't produce the cars just as cheap as rivals from korea or china.

Technically this is possible. Brasilian VW Fox sells here in europe for less. But it looks "just ordinary" and drives just "ordinary". With 60 or 70hp it is not exactly the pocket rocket too, althrough mileage is good. So, you can buy Hyundai, Kia or Daewoo just as well, and have approximately the same, plus maybe, a better service. So, why should they fly off the lot?

As what to do with Skoda and Seat?

The policy was to form the "sporty" division with Lamborghini at the top, Audi in the middle and Seat at the bottom. And the "comfort" division, with Bentley at the top, VW in the middle and Skoda as a cheapest alternative. So, if you look that way, the current model line makes sense. It just takes time to get used to it.

It has already happened in europe. If you want cheap Golf, you buy Skoda Oktavia. A luxury Golf is err... the Golf :) If you want cheap sporty Golf without sound insulation, you buy Seat Leon. Or the more luxury sport Golf in form of Audi A3 or the "extreme" version - TT.

Cheap Passat is Skoda Superb. Luxury Passat is VW Passat. Sporty passat is Audi A4.

Cheap Polo is Skoda Fabia. Luxury Polo is VW Polo. Sporty Polo is Seat Ibiza.

And the same is with Phaeton or Tuareg. Phaeton is "comfort", Audi A8 is "sporty". VW Tuareg is "comfort", Porsche Cayenne is "sporty".

very close in looks to the

Well, if the car was designed in europe, then It would be a classical "we did not know" thing. Because we do not have the same Corolla as you, and our Corolla is nowhere in any way similar to Jetta. Which I personally find quite nice, in contrast to "our" Corolla. But of course, the Jetta is produced mainly for the NA market, so such an ignorance would be horribly unprofessional.

On the other hand, if this american Corolla model is in the market just for the last 1-2 years, then it maybe was too late for the Jetta to change anyting.

Provided they earn something when selling the car. Which I doubt.

snip

... or add hybrids to their stable.

tell me who cares about America ??

skrev i en meddelelse news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...