Federal traffic controllers were fired for violating their CONTRACT. Like
many union contracts they had a no strike clause. Unions represent
employees and unions have only ONE right in that contract and that is the
right to force the employers to abide by the terms of that contract or pay a
price when they do not, period. Unions have no right to violate that
contract or they pay a price as well.. The union was advised by President
Ragan that if they violated their contract they would be fired, they chose
to go out on strike anyway and were fired.
And whose fault is that?
a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.
Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won
the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it
or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car
now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations
of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.
Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half
a century ago.
b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they
are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops
on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?
it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.
You folks ought to read some history. Do you really think that companies
like to give you a paid vacation, sick days, paid medical? Paid medical,
notice that when unions clout began to erode out came the HMO? Prior it was
a comprehensive program where you could go to any doctor you wanted to see.
Now they control that. Where the heck do you think the 40hour week came
Union men and woman fought and some died to get you the benefits you enjoy
today. Do some unions suck yup. but some do a hell of a job.
You might want to think where you'd be without unions, also where you will
be if they are gone. We have started down that slippery slope.imho
Read? Who do you think you are suggesting we read about the unions and
the early immigants who formed the powerful unions to fight the
sweatshops on the Lower East Side in New York city? The Triangle Fire
You're right, of course. It's just my recent personal experience with
unions has been very bad. Well, one particular union obviously. But I
tried. The really bad-ass union, a local Teamsters, not the sweetheart
corrupt one I mentioned before, actually gave me the most time and
consideration. I don't know what happened to them. Something with
shotguns and holing up to fight the main Teamsters. Kind of nasty.
But you need unions. One leading law firm that does the union work
actually uses the UAW to protect its clerk hourly employees from these
really nasty high-powered legal types, its own lawyers, who are
fighting for labor. That's really ugly but life goes on.
You are absolutely NOT wrong, Roy. Pre unions, there was child labor, sweat
no benefits, conspired salary controls.
Had not the unions been formed, does anyone REALLY think that American would
a fit place to work? Not likely.
Yes, there have been excesses. And the attitude of some Americans is toward
But in the past, it was all for the wealthy industrialists, and nothing for
The first 'union' was started in the anthracitic coal fields, in and around
Schuylkill county, in northeastern Pennsylvania in the late 1800's. Irish
coal minors fought against 12 hour work days, six days a week, in the most
horrible and deadly working conditions imaginable, for $3 a week. Do a
search for a group know as the 'Molly McGuire's.'
You would have us revert to our past? Although in some ways we are headed
that way imo.
I said somewhere in this thread that some unions suck, others don't. Also
said that the members make up the union read what ya want into it. Were
there no unions today do you truly believe that benefits, wages and
safety,would be as they are?
Plain and simple, I know it sounds cold but the wages are to high for
the work being done because you can train anyone with no skill at all to
do nmost of those jobs in short order. They will have a choice, a job
with maybe 40 buck. an hour in wages and benfits which is not bad money
for that work or hold out for current wages and have no job at all.
If high wages are the problem and all unions suck, I'd expect you folks to
be doing your part and give back to whoever you work for, 50% of your pay.
Oh, silly me how could I think such a thing. That only happens to somebody
You folks might want to take the time to get a good grasp on reality,
because when they pull it off with the unions, care to guess who is next?
Riiiiiiight, unions are all that's preventing massive, wholesale
elimination of all jobs.
It's amazing to me how the unionists will wave their little flags and
chant their vacuous little slogans as long as it's the union bosses who
call the shots. Let it be the government instead, and these same
sloganeers start bitching and whining about socialism.
I don't agree with pay cuts, for any workers, Delphi or not. I have never
with the idea of pay cuts.
But I do understand that some people are clearly overpaid.
This isn't the fault of the worker, however. Workers must be assumed to
try to get as much money as they can, whatever the circumstances.
must be assumed to pay out as little as possible, whatever the
If in a given business like Delphi, the workers happen to be overpaid, this
not a worker problem. It's Management being stupid by giving away too much
at the negotiating table and letting the salaries go to high.
If a businesses conditions change and they find their line of work to be
profitable than before, thus making it more difficult to continue to pay at
same rate of pay as before, then their management must find other more
profitable lines of work. This is what diversification is all about. That
management is running the company, not the workers. If management does
not do that then they have failed and the usual result is bankruptcy and
shutting down the company. This is a management failure, not a worker
failure. Nobody is holding a gun to any of Delphi's managers and telling
them they cannot quit their jobs anytime. Those managers are staying there
because they are claiming they are competent to run the company. If they
are not competent, than they are liars. If their company fails it is better
the economy because then it will be replaced by another company that does
have competent managers.
All of this is Business 101 and I think it surprising that these concepts
so difficult to understand.
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