Hey, that doesn't look half bad! The 420G/Mark X is not my favourite model although they always look so impressive I wouldn't be embarrassed by having one. We have a pristine Golden Sand 420G in town that turns a darn sight more heads than any contemporary Jag ever would (or my Mark 2, for that matter). On the Ford -Jaguar issue, my personal take is that to me the only real Jaguar has an XK engine in it i.e before BL or Ford blanded them out. This is not a criticism of the quality etc. of modern Jaguars. It is just a perception thing - like the only real James Bond was Sean Connery not bland Roger or the Irish bloke (and who remembers George Lazenby?).
Very simply, Web, I doubt seriously anyone even 10 years from now will look upon the current S-Type with the reverence we all have for old Porsches, MBs, BMWs or, to the point, classic Jaguars. Let's not even think about the Mondeo/X-Type. These products are heading for the ash heap of automobiledom and will be viewed as "Faux-Jaguars", because that's what they are. No one disputes Ford saved Jaguar from itself 15 years ago, however, there's no doubt they're in process of destroying a marque they simply wanted to keep away from GM. Here's hoping wise heads at Ford prevail and either fund it properly or sell it off and get back to what Ford does best: Build trucks!
I actually agree with you regarding the current line of Jags -- with the possible exception of the XJR. But I really don't have a problem with that!! Jaguar was in a mess and Ford gave them the ability to exist. Slooooowly, Ford has started to bring them back into the world of competitive auto making. I have heard nothing but good things about the diesels they produce now and even though I am not a fan of the estate wagon, I realize that modern needs call for a modern response. If you can't beat them -- join them syndrome. One of the things I DO like is the fact that the quality -- which Jag has NEVER been known for has started to become one of the shining areas at Jaguar. My local paper yesterday had a BIG, full page article about how badly the Mercedes is being made now. Their conclusion, between parts falling off the Mercedes and the wind whistling through nearly every Mercedes convertible made is that Mercedes in no longer the premier marque that it once was. According to rankings now, Mercedes list as number 5 in customer satisfaction behind Toyota, BMW, Honda and yes, Jaguar!!! I, for one believe Jaguar is on the right track. Their new Advanced Lightweight, if it goes into production WILL be a car that 40 years from now, my kids (who love Jags) WILL drool over as "Those were the days!!" Especially with the hybrids coming on so strong in the marketplace. In fact, my High School senior son who drives an XJ40 to school every day -- is already in love with the new Advance Lightweight. That is a good sign for Jaguar for the future. Let's just hope the Lightweight does not fall tot he same fate as the F1
Webserve
"SoK66" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@enews4.newsguy.com...
By The Way, Allen. I finally figured out why I was spelling marque the way I was. I have automatic spell check on my outgoing e-mails and every time spell check was done it told me that marque is not a word and that the proper spelling is marquee. And we ALL know that Bill Gates knows what he is talking about!! I will have to believe that -- at least until I make as much money in my lifetime as he makes a year.
Obviously, you're not addressing me, but I'll answer anyway [insert upbeat emoticon]
The spill chucker is only telling you that the word you are typing is not in its limited lexicon and substituting the nearest one it has, regardless of context. Change to a better spill chucker, they are often part of a better email and/or newsgroup software solution.
Bill Gates is the best snake oil salesman of our time and nothing more. Many excellent software products have fallen by the wayside in the face of M$ smoke and mirrors marketing. Fortunately, many still thrive, albeit in relative obscurity.
Ford have owned Jaguar for 16 years now, more than time enough to judge their performance. The public is voting with their wallets, and Jaguar's in deep trouble in the marketplace.
Jaguar's quality soared in the mid-90's, in the States they nearly knocked off Lexus in '98. However, it quickly tanked again thanks to the S & X-Type fiascos. But, the issue at hand is the design of the cars themselves, which the public knows aren't true Jaguars. Ford had an opportunity to introduce something really new & excxiting into the marketplace, instead they tried to fool everyone and it backfired.
The Advanced Lightweight shows promise, but it will take a lot more than that. PAG President Mark Fields stated publicly Jaguar won't regain share or return to profitrability before '09. At that point Ford will have owned them for 20 years! Fords ownership may have been a short-term fix, but long term it's been a flop. I seriously doubt they'll even make '09, now they've appointed an American bean-counter, Bibi Boerio, to be Managing Director. She's a Ford finance moonie who doesn't know a proper Jaguar from a box of soap. At a time when they need a solid veteran car person at the helm, this is who they get? Kinda says it all AFAIK.
Or, perhaps they could bring back one of the real Jaguar people who've been frittered off to meaningless obscurity within Ford, like Roger Putnam. (BTW, DeLorean actually does own an XJ6.)
I'll take my S-Type R POS ford anyday over the blatant junk Jaguar was producing before ford brought some sanity to the QA department at Jaguar. I had a late 80s XJ6, may it rot in hell. Worst car I ever owed. I still cant believe how much I paid for it new. What a ripoff.
I now have a 2003 S-Type R and its the greatest car I have ever owned.
When the fake is better, I'll take the fake, thank you.
10 years from now, the current crop of MBs, BMWs and Porsches will be nothing more than 10 year old pre-owned cars. Also destined for the ash heap. Just like my 2003 S-Type R. I didnt buy it to put in a museum or to keep in the garage. I bought it to drive back and fourth to work, run my kids around and go shopping on the weekends. I put
20k miles on it in the first year and havent had a single complaint. And there isnt another car out there that can run with it, with 5 comfortable adults for what I paid.
To me, it is just a car. If I want something truely enjoyable to drive, I peel back the cover on my Austin Healey 3000 MkI.
Someone please explain something to me, because I am ver y curious about this. What makes a "True Jaguar"?
Does it have to leak oil? Does it have to not start when its been parked in the rain? Does the shift gate have to break 11 times in 7 years? Does it just have to flat bedded back to the dealer frequently? Does it have to have the gas tank replaced 3 times in 7 years? Does the paint have to go totally dull in 3 years? Does the chrome have to peel off the grill? Does the leather seats have to split seams within 35,000 miles? Does the turn signal knob have to disintegrate? Does the cigarette lighter have to work only occaisionally?
I have owned several different Jaguars over the last 25 years, some bought brand new, some not. I have always loved the performance, style and panache of the marque, even in spite of their notorious reliability issues. I can honestly say that my current Jaguar, a
2003 S-Type R is a great car. Is it, in any way, similar to any of the older ones I've had? No way. Is it better? Hell Yeah. Will it be a classic in 2043? Who knows, who cares. Modern cars are just not built to be classics. An S-Type R is nothing like a vintage S-Type. Just like a modern Porsche 911 is nothing like a vintage 911.
The current crop of Jaguar cars dont sell for a lot of reasons. I dont think its because they are not "true jaguars". Jaguar set sales records in every year from 1999 - 2003. These sales were largely driven by the S-Type and X-Type, a couple of untrue Jaguars. Jaguar Cars are better now than they ever were. Sure they arent the lightweight, great handling, sexy cars fitted with mechanical jewels for engines anymore, but. Wait, I'm not sure I even agree with that. Have you driven a new XJR lately?
Ford has saved Jaguar from the ruins. They are spending enormous amounts of money developing some very interesting new products. Go drive the new Aston Martin DB9 and tell me thats not a great car. Could something equally great be in Jaguar's future? Probably. But, since it wont be a "True Jaguar" then f*ck it! Just another POS ford.
I really do wish someone would take some time and write a sensible post, without any personal attacks, explaining to me what a "True Jaguar" is. Because, I just dont get it, I guess. Please, I'm being totally serious here.
Whew!! I don't know about you, but I feel better after reading your post.!!!
What a true Jaguar is --- is a matter of opinion.
Back in 1973, when I bought my first Jaguar, a 1962 Mark II 3.8 liter Saloon, I was CONTINUALLY being told by the XKE people that my Mark II was not a true Jaguar. Now the Mark II is regarded as the flagship of the saloons.
In the late 60s Jaguar bought out Daimler. The Daimler people felt the same way towards Jag as the Jag people now feel about Ford. So is a Daimler 420 a true Jag? It is nearly identical to the Jag 420.
Do we consider only Jags with race proven XK engines? Or is it only the V-12? What about that period of time with British Leyland owned Jag? Do we consider those cars to be true Jags??
Personally, I think they are all Jags. Currently, I own 3 Jags. 2 from the
60s and one from the late 80s. All three are fantastic cars. They are all far superior in some ways and far inferior in some ways to my best friend's
2001 XJR. I will be continually impressed by the speed and handling of his XJR. The XJR has NOTHING over the ride and sound of that XK engine when I press the 1967 420.
But they are all Jags.
What is happening is that, like most people, Jag owners can't handle change. I for one embrace it. I think the Ford take over saved Jaguar and I think the new Lightweight is a step into the future.
It is all the fun of what makes up Jaguar. Even these lists.
A "true Jaguar" sits on a dedicated platform, not one developed as a mass-market product. A "real Jaguar" has more, not less, leather than a Ford Explorer SUV, and it DOES NOT utilize a Ford engine & transmission. A "real Jaguar" does not have a cheap interior ladden with cheap Ford switchgear, cheap gauges, cheap headliners & cheap leather befitting a Ford pickup. "Real Jaguars" aren't built in Ford plants, kept alive as Socialist work programs with Jaguar executives ordered to "make it work". I can go on with this, but you get the point.
I get so confused trying to figure things out on this list!! So a True Jaguar should not have appeal to the masses and survivability of platform? My 1967 S-Type is not a Jaguar because it came from the factory with NO leather ANYWHERE!! My top of the line Jaguar 420 and Mark II are not Jaguars because like most other Jags the only leather in the entire car is the eat fronts!! Same for my 1989 XJ40. Obviously the 1968 XKE is not a true Jaguar because they switched the switches and gauges from toggle to cheap rocker in 1968 to meet US safety standards.
The point is you have NO idea what a Jaguar is to say things like this!!
Jaguars are free spirited hunter/killers. They are lean and have little fat. They are known for their explosive speed and tenacious grip. Jaguars are unique. Other cats can be confused with the Jag, but when it comes to getting their prey the real Jags stand out.
What the debate here is - the death of individuality and the prolonging of the Leyland buisness plan. Leyland took Jag off course, and Ford continues this move.
If we did not bitch the new Jagd would still have the small FORD explorer seats, not picnic tables, or even wood for that matter. Jaguar did not choose the V8 because it superior to a well designed six, its because its cheaper to make. Now the price has not dropped to match the cheapening of the products, but the brand loyal customers are dwindling.
My neighbor loves my XJ40, and it is pristine, lowered, and hotter than most. He loved mine so much he went to buy one. He didnt you know why? He said it looks and feels like a FORD.
Theres the problem...people see a FORD and not a Jag. Sure newer Jags are nice and have shinny paint, put the allure of Jag has benn greatly diminshed. I guess it is a snobbery thing, some people dont want to own a FORD, they want a Jaguar.
If you dont know the difference then you never did.
Blake, Without a doubt I don't understand!! I have never said otherwise. I never thought of a Mark IX or a Mark X as "lean and have very little fat" I have never considered a Mark I with a 2.4 litre engine as being known for "explosive speed and tenacious grip" They could barely get out of their own way!!! The S-Type, Mark II, 240 and 340 from 1967 on had Ambla (vinyl) interiors EVERY Jaguar I know of had vinyl door panels. With the exception of the seat faces on your XJ40 -- It is also all vinyl -- including the console lid!!
My friend's Black on Black 2001 XJR built under the Ford banner IS, however, EVERYTHING you state a Jaguar should be. It has the same size seats as both my 420 and my XJ40 -- just better designed and more comfortable. With 380+ horsepower -- it is the fastest Jag I have ever driven and I have owned Jags since 1973.
So you took an XJ40 and lowered it. And you still consider it a Jag?? Does it have a rear spoiler and a little dog in the rear window with a head that bobs up and down with eyes that light up when you turn on the directional??
How to make a mockery of a fine motorcar!!
Time changes all things. I no longer work on an 8086 computer and I don't like all the unnecessary memory ports I have to pay for on new machines, but that is the way the industry has shifted. I have had to adjust. Things change, times change - get over it!!
Here is the thing about snobbery. (or in your case pseudo-snobbery) Two of my kids who can drive, both drive Jags. One of them drives the XJ40 to High School. His Beemer friends and Lexus friends are all envious of him and they all talk about the XJR as one of the hottest machines on the road. Whenever they go somewhere they make him drive because he has "The Jag-wahrr!!". Is this not the future??
Both of these kids know a LOT about Jags and the history of Jaguar. They can't stand other Jags owners because of the "airs" these people put on. And most of the airs come from people who are driving XJ40s that are probably worth all of $2500 on a good day!! The ultimate irony!!
Some day you will have to teach me the true meaning of what a Jaguar is. I am still new at them having only owned Jags for the past 32 years and doing all my own repairs and restoration. I am still a novice and obviously have SO much to learn from an experienced low-rider XJ40 owner like yourself!!
Now hold on a moment. I never spoke of leather everything. I never said mine was a real Jaguar. I never said that the newer Jag could'nt be a good car. I spoke of what a Jaguar should be/was. It was not always fat assed luxury, but it wasnt always someone else design redesigned.
Honda is making huge waves with performance add ons, Jags.....nothing.
As far as making a mokery of my car feel free. It low, mean, and fast. It handles way better and has little body lean yet still rides like a dream. I drive a Leyland (OMG!) It far better than some poorly waxed Jag with some old pipe smoking fart inside it that bought it because "it was cheap".
When I get out onto the highway I pull up next to these X and s types, j gate down to second, hit 75mph, shift into third and bam. 120. bam Fourth, tops out at 150mph. Yep such a mockery. I drove a new XJ8, it can only go 120mph. Yet I can get in my car and travel 20mph in silence all day and be happy. I got your spoiler, it was your cheap shot at me.
If nobody complained about changes then there would be a Taco Bell on every corner. Just like the food wrappers you throw in your back seats of your cars. Thanks.
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