oil analysis - traces of silicium and aluminium particles indicating wear

Hello everyone,

I 'm sorry that I need to post again on this topic, but last time this was discussed I did not dare do anything about this engine problem.

I had my engine oil checked out in a oil laboratory, since I suspected something was wrong with my engine. This was in october 2005. Silicium content was about 230 ppm, aluminium wear particles were about 80 ppm. Microscopic analysis of the oil revealed ablative and abrasive aluminium particles within the oil. This was with oil sampled only 5 kms after an oil change.

The 2005 discussion was long, and it was agreed that this oil pollution was something very alarming. I had a second car so put the car with the polluted oil away until now. The second car was damaged total loss two weeks ago in an accident, so I had to take action and put new oil in the engine, and hope for some luck about engine damage.

No luck, two times analysis of the new oil 5 kms and 200 kms after another oil change showed 18 ppm and 37 ppm respectively for silicium, and 7 and 22 ppm respectively for aluminium. Even worse, the oil sample after 200 kms showed very high glycol content of over 400 ppm. The latter glycol content was suspected to come from a leaky head gasket.

I've driven - carefully avoiding higher engine loads hoping to control damage - about 700 kms now, but I don't know how this evolution is continuing, since oil analysis costs some substantial sums of money. Compression measured of every cylinder ( some 15 bar of compression pressure ) doesn't indicate substantial damage on the piston segmentation/rings or head gasket, but I'm not feeling confident about the engine.

As shown above, silicium pollution and aluminium wear particles of the oil seem to increase gradually , although it is much less than with the oil samples in 2005, even after some 200 kms of driving.

Even while microscopic analysis showed wear particles, is it possible that the silicium and aluminium content could also be caused by certain engine oil additifs ? There are engine oil soap skeleton substances which contain aluminium, and maybe also some form of silicium could be an additif.

I hope someone can react to this problem. Any ideas also how head gasket damage could be evaluated, since cylinder compression readings are still very good. Is it possible the head gasket can be damaged between the coolant openings and the oil canal opening, without damage to the cylinder openings ?

And could I be right if I say that if coolant leaks in a limited way into the oil canal opening through the head gasket, is it logical that the coolant only leaks into the oil when the engine and hence oil pump is shut down, and the oil pressure dissapears while the coolant still has overpressure due to being hot ? If so, is the glycol leak into the oil worsening in the case the engine is used many times for short periods, and shut down much more frequently then when the engine is turning for much longer periods of time without shutting down ?

I'm terribly sorry, I seem to be unable to explain my problem in a compact message, because I don't want to create confusion by using bad english which could be misinterpreded.

Many thanks in advance for your reactions !

Peter

Reply to
peter
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Why would you get the oil analysed in the first place? Additives are generally a waste of money, regular good quality oil changes would be more beneficial.

head gaskets can leak oil into the water system or water into the oil, or combustion into the oil, or combustion into the water, or combustion into the atmosphere or combustion can leak between cylinders !!

However, depending on the engine design oil can leak to the water in other ways, through porous castings, via o rings below liners, cracks etc. etc.

Obviously the water to oil leakage needs fixing asap. probably it is via the head gasket

To limit losses in the meantime try running the system unpressurised or at least relieve the pressure when you stop for the night

Reply to
Mrcheerful

You are paranoid. All engines wear. A large amount of the engine wear occurs during the first tens of thousands of kilometers as the components "bed in".

Reply to
Conor

Personally I reckon if you can afford to get your oil lab tested then you can probably afford a new engine if you are really that worried about it. If you didn't have the tests done you'd probably be a happy man.

Reply to
malc

You're welcome. Get a life.

Reply to
David Taylor

Hi

[snip long description of oil analysis]

You worry too much. Does the car still go well without losing fluids, showing visible oil in water/water in oil or making vile rattling noises?

If so, take the oil analysis results, and throw them away :-). Change the oil at a reasonable interval, drive with a bit of mechanical sympathy, and stop thinking about it.

Reply to
Chris Bartram

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "peter" saying something like:

No. You agreed with yourself, iirc.

Whatever - just drive the damned thing.

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

From what I can glean from the web, these sound like rather high figures. Is it a relatively new engine? As others have said, levels will be high on a new engine.

Reply to
Doki

Spot on IMO. What would be more surprising is if the oil did not show any contamination. Engines wear throughout their life, so I don't understand why the OP is so worried. The second set of readings seem quite low to me, but I must admit don't know how high they have to be before they become a concern. Silicium, or Silicon seems an odd pollutant. Where does that come from? Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

If you google, figures of 10 or 20 seem more normal.

Reply to
Doki

Hello Peter,

Still at it then? I wondered where you had got to. I'll say one thing for you, you're better than the average troll, your rubbish is almost believable.

Reply to
pb

And then he'll be bitching because the particle count has shot through the roof on the new one as the components bed in.

Reply to
Conor

eh? All engines wear! I expect you'd find particles in any engine's oil. What on earth made you get it analysed in the first place????

Mike P

Reply to
Mike P

Firstly, I presume the silicium that you speak of is actually silicon. Silicium does not exist. Secondly, I note that the 'pollutants' you mention appear in the oil after only 5,000 miles. Had you considered that they were there in the brand new oil? Thirdly, where would silicon come from? What bit of the engine contains silicon that would wear and form a pollutant in oil? If you're really going to go to town on this why don't you find out in what form this silicon is to be found in the oil, because it won't be as pure silicon, it will be combined with something else, e.g. silicon dioxide is sand.

OTOH, there are probably several parts of your engine which are made of aluminium, and which would wear, causing contamination of the oil by aluminium particles. I'm only telling you this to give you a sleepless night. I'd hate to think how much aluminium I've got in my oil. And I certainly won't have it tested for uranium in case they find some there.

Rob Graham

Reply to
robgraham

I asked the same question earlier before I remembered that silicon is often an element of steel alloys. Maybe in the alloys used for cams and followers, chains and sprockets, crankshafts etc, where a very slight degree of wear would be expected. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

"peter" schreef in bericht news:P%Fqk.67864$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe18.ams...

Hello everyone,

I'll stop worrying over this engine oil, and start worrying about the response I get to this message. ;-)

I can only say that the oil lab I used is making money, and that could be a proof that when they say I've got alarmingly high levels of wear particles, they could be right. I am not sure of course.

I am open to discuss this analysis showed just quantities of additifs which don't harm the engine. However, I got their microscopic analysis, saying they found many "silica" particles, and why would they say something which is not true ?

One thing more,

Someone changed my coolant liquid a month before, so he drained the system completely. Then he drove the car completely dry out onto the parking, drove it in again and had the engine idling for about half an hour, during which he added small quantities of coolant liquid, until he thought the system was full of coolant and no air in it left. Since there was a screw to let the air out of the cooling circuit, I thought he had made a mistake and should have used this purposely built in screw to let the air out. Maybe the engine had overheated. I don't know...

Many thanks for your comments.

Peter

Reply to
peter

However, I got their microscopic analysis, saying

Ah! Now you're using a different word. The word you originally used was silicium, which does not exist so silicon is the element that I presumed you were referring to. However, you're now saying silica, which does exist. Silica is silicon dioxide, which has several forms, one of which is sand.

However, Mike G has suggested that silicon (in the form of silica?) is found in some steels and therefore could end up in your oil. However, as I said before, maybe you should get the oil analysed before you put it in the car in case these items are already there. But you must be the only person in the world who is doing this analysing!

Rob

Reply to
robgraham

engines should not be run for more than a few seconds with the coolant low, so it is very likely to have overheated and 'blown' the head gasket or cracked the head

Reply to
Mrcheerful

Hello,

Finally I get somewhere. What could I have done to have this guy overheating my car ? The only thing I did was buy an oil filter and some 3 liters of oil at his garage one month before. Apparently, some dealers of this brand of cars don't like owners to change the oil themselves. They don't like owners to know anything about their cars. In case they make mistakes ...

Very disapointing to discover this. I don't have any proof of this.

Anyway, I hope to have shown that I'm not being paranoid, just eager to know what has happened to my engine. Oil analysis cost from 5 euros to some 25 euro each sample. It isn't a waist of money, I think. And to answer to Rob, no, this lab is doing many samples a day, so I'm not alone.

Many thanks,

Peter

Reply to
peter

Does the car drive ok? Does it smoke? Does it rattle? Does it make any odd noises? Does it use any coolant or oil?

What made you think there was something wrong with it originally?

Mike P

Reply to
Mike P

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