Re: Re: 94 Eclipse won’t_start-no_spark

Cam angle sensor? On that car is is built into the distributor. Was the "new" one a used or refurbished one? Did a wire come loose?

I should have added, I've been in this situation before. My cam angle sensor died. I didn't get the code until the car started for a few seconds. Then I cleared it and it still wouldn't start. It did the same thing a couple of times until I replaced it. On the 3K/VR4 it is seperate, but $$$. It fixed the problem.

"nirodac1" wrote: > Well I don't have the 94 manual, but I do have the 91,92,93 > manual. It > should be close but only use these comments as a guide. > > > The primary of the ignition coil should be between 0.9 and 1.2 > ohms, > measured between the read and black wires of the 2 pin > connector at the > distributor > The secondary should be between 0.77 and 0.95 Kohms, measured > between > the red wire of the 2 pin connector and the center tower of > the > distributor. Did you say you measured 300K. Check again. > > The coil is controlled by a transistor, which is controlled by > the ECU. > With a volt meter on pin 6 of the 6 pin connector (and > ground), you > should see a pulse train as the engine cranks over. This > would be the > ECU trying to fire the transistor, to fire the coil. > > To test the transistor do this (from the 91 service manual). > First > disconnect the two connectors at the distributor (one has two > pins, the > other 6) > > Connect the negative side of a 1.5 volt battery to pin 5 of > the 6 pin > connector at the distributor (black wire) > Connect the positive side of your analog ohmmeter to the same > pin. > Connect the negative side of the meter to the white /black > wire on the > two pin connector at the distributor. > Connect the positive side of the battery to pin 6 of the 6 pin > connector > (green yellow wire) > The meter should show continuity or low resistance when the > positive of > the battery is connect to pin 6, and high resistance when > disconnected. > The transistor can be tested with an ohm meter. The base is > attached > to pin 6 (6 pin connector), the emitter to pin5 (6 pin > connector) and > the collector to pin 2 of the 2 pin connector > > Pins 3 (crank sensor) and pin 4 (TDC) are the opto outputs > from these > sensors, and should show a pulse train as the engine is > cranked, use a > voltmeter to measure this. Pin 2 has 12 volts that powers the > opto > sensors (in the engine run position). > > Good luck > > wsnwill wrote: > > > > > Sorry, I didn?t explain it correctly. It is a series of > pulses, about > > 1 a second, where the needle on the meter constantly > deflects from > > 0-12v (code 1). A no code, in which the meter needle stays > at 12v, > > would indicate a bad ECU, according to the Haynes book. What > I meant > > by no codes is that there are no other fault codes displayed > after the > > constant series of pulses, like no more codes stored in the > ECU. I > > took it out today and noticed nothing unusual. The timing > belt is not > > broke as I saw the cam move thru the oil fill hole while my > son > > cranked the engine. Other than the ECU or distributor, is > there > > anything else that would prevent the computer from giving > the command > > to spark, a sensor or anything? I measured resistance of > coil primary > > and secondary and insulation resistance. When I measured > coil > > secondary terminal (high tower) to ground I got a value of > 300k. I > > would think this should be infinity. Any ideas? > > > > I appreciate the help. I have normally done most of the work > on my > > cars, but this one is kicking my butt. > > > > Bill > >

You guys are great. When my ex told me that the shop had put a distributor, she said it was used and wasn?t exactually for an Eclipse. It came out of a Talon or something else along those lines, she didn?t know. She got it for a $100 so as long as it worked she was happy. So that might be part of the problem. I will check today to see if it is getting a pulse from the ECU. I had already made up my mind to get a distributor first, cause remembering back when I first put the meter on to check the codes, I got confused with the initial code

Again, thanks. The level of help is tremendous.

Bill

"wsnwill" wrote: > You guys are great. When my ex told me that the shop had put a > distributor, she said it was used and wasn't exactually for an > Eclipse. It came out of a Talon or something else along those > lines, she didn't know. She got it for a $100 so as long as it > worked she was happy. So that might be part of the problem. I > will check today to see if it is getting a pulse from the ECU. > I had already made up my mind to get a distributor first, > cause remembering back when I first put the meter on to check > the codes, I got confused with the initial code 1 (didn't > realize it did a self check first) but now distinctly remember > it outputed a code 20 something. As far as a loose wire inside > the distributor, I couldn't get the botton screw out of the > cover inside, but when I take it out I will check. The screw > head was stripped out a little and the screwdrive wouldn't get > a good grab. Regardless, loose wire or not, I will probably > just put the rebuilt one in. We'll see. There is a chance of > rain today but I will let you all know how it went. > > Again, thanks. The level of help is tremendous. > > Bill

Well, I checked to see if I was getting pulses at pin 6 and all I got was a steady voltage, unless it triggers so fast my meter can?t read it. Does a steady voltage indicate a bad ECU? Now I am not smelling any gas where I was before when I cranked it. Does that mean anything? Would any sensor not let it start?

Now my son tells me more. About 3 weeks ago a belt broke not too far from home and he drove it home. It overheated. put new belt on and started up and every thing ok til this happened. Now he tells me that the temp lite on instrurment panel would stay on every time it cranked and would go out in about 5 min, but the guage showed normal. Also, he said he put injector cleaner in and after that it started missing and spittered and sputtered worse and more often.

ECU still outputting a series of pulses so I?m assuming its good. I hope you continue to keep helping me. Thanks.

Bill

That probably means the coil is bad. It should be pulsed as the pickup rotates with the cam. Steady + or - means it isn't rotating. BTW, a Talon and Eclipse are the same car. I didn't know Eagle sold a 1.8 talon though. Maybe it was off a Dodge Colt? The 1.8 has almost nothing in common with the turbo versions, certainly not the coil.

The overheat isn't good, but it usually isn't as bad as it could be. There is a simple thermister for the gage and there is a separate sender for the ECU to read...at least there is on the 2G turbo version (1G cars have similar setup, plus one for the fans? For 1Gs, thats all at the radiator too). The best sensor goes to the ECU and the sloppy one to the gauge. That is to keep the driver from seeing the needle move up and down a lot. In reality, the temps vary quite a bit during normal driving. The ECU needs to know this, the driver only needs to know a problem. In an overheat the sensors can be damaged and wont read correctly ever again. Normally the gauge one starts to go crazy ($5 part). The ECU sender is usually better quality ($$$) and doesn't usually get damaged. If you had a logger you could see the temp and compare it to a cooking thermometer. It may just need to be replaced. This only affects mileage and emissions. Not worth it for a kids car.

You may want to tell the kid how to deal with an overheat condition in the future. Tell him to run the heat at full blast, even in the summer, and coast to a stop with the engine off and the ignition at ACC (so the heater blower works and the steering doesn't lock up). It's better to sit for 30 minutes, drive 5, sit again, than to blow a head gasket.

As for the injector cleaner, tell him it is snake oil. It may have removed some varnish, but they ended up on the plugs. Modern gas doesn't leave varnish. BTW...how are the plugs? If he did use cleaner, he could have fouled the plugs pretty badly from carbon in the pistons.

"Nobody U. Know" wrote: > > Well, I checked to see if I was getting pulses at pin 6 and > all I got > > was a steady voltage, unless it triggers so fast my meter > can?t read > > it. Does a steady voltage indicate a bad ECU? Now I am not > smelling > > any gas where I was before when I cranked it. Does that mean > anything? > > Would any sensor not let it start? > > That probably means the coil is bad. It should be pulsed as > the pickup > rotates with the cam. Steady + or - means it isn't rotating. > BTW, a Talon > and Eclipse are the same car. I didn't know Eagle sold a 1.8 > talon though. > Maybe it was off a Dodge Colt? The 1.8 has almost nothing in > common with the > turbo versions, certainly not the coil. > > > Now my son tells me more. About 3 weeks ago a belt broke not > too far > > from home and he drove it home. It overheated. put new belt > on and > > started up and every thing ok til this happened. Now he > tells me that > > the temp lite on instrurment panel would stay on every time > it cranked > > and would go out in about 5 min, but the guage showed > normal. Also, he > > said he put injector cleaner in and after that it started > missing and > > spittered and sputtered worse and more often. > > The overheat isn't good, but it usually isn't as bad as it > could be. There > is a simple thermister for the gage and there is a separate > sender for the > ECU to read...at least there is on the 2G turbo version (1G > cars have > similar setup, plus one for the fans? For 1Gs, thats all at > the radiator > too). The best sensor goes to the ECU and the sloppy one to > the gauge. That > is to keep the driver from seeing the needle move up and down > a lot. In > reality, the temps vary quite a bit during normal driving. The > ECU needs to > know this, the driver only needs to know a problem. In an > overheat the > sensors can be damaged and wont read correctly ever again. > Normally the > gauge one starts to go crazy ($5 part). The ECU sender is > usually better > quality ($$$) and doesn't usually get damaged. If you had a > logger you could > see the temp and compare it to a cooking thermometer. It may > just need to be > replaced. This only affects mileage and emissions. Not worth > it for a kids > car. > > You may want to tell the kid how to deal with an overheat > condition in the > future. Tell him to run the heat at full blast, even in the > summer, and > coast to a stop with the engine off and the ignition at ACC > (so the heater > blower works and the steering doesn't lock up). It's better to > sit for 30 > minutes, drive 5, sit again, than to blow a head gasket. > > As for the injector cleaner, tell him it is snake oil. It may > have removed > some varnish, but they ended up on the plugs. Modern gas > doesn't leave > varnish. BTW...how are the plugs? If he did use cleaner, he > could have > fouled the plugs pretty badly from carbon in the pistons. > > -- > Todd Honea > > > > > ..

Well, I put the new distributor in and still no fire. Plugs have a nice gray coating-not fouled out. ECU still outputting pulses. When I measured at pin 6 it was with the connector off at the distributor cause I took it from the post that the transistor gave the pulses to the dist. Tomorrow (actually today, I work nites) I am going to check all sensors to see if one of them is not giving the ECU the correct signal to it can send the spark command. And due to a previous post I read here, I made sure the plug wires were on correctly.

I re-examined the Ecu and noticed what appeared to me to be wax on a few spots on the board but nothing bad. I work in electronics so am familiar with those kind of problems. No burnt components or bulging caps or corrosion. I got a pin out of the ECU so I?m gonna start looking at sensor signals there. If there was something wrong with the ECU would it still give a good self check code 1? I ordered one and they are gonna hold it for me for a day or two. I hate to easter-egg hunt for problems.

I?ll let you know what the results were of checks. Thanks for taking the time to help me. Sorry theis is taking so long.

Bill

"nirodac1" wrote: > OK, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here. > > The two opto isolators in the distributor, send a series of > pulses TO > the ECU. > One signal tells the ECU when the engine is at top dead > center. > The second signal tells the ECU what the crank angle is. This > pretty > much determines if the coil is fired, and when. > Failure of either of these sensors and you ain't getting no > spark. > > Using this information (and other things, like air flow, > temperature and > O2 sensor output) the ECU sends a ground signal TO the power > transistor > in the distributor (that would be on pin 6) to turn off the > transistor > which removes the ground from the primary of the coil. As the > magnetic > field of the coil collapses, it generates a magnet flux in the > iron > core, which causes the secondary winding to generate a very > high voltage > (due to the large number off windings in the secondary). This > high > voltage will arch across your spark plugs. > When measuring for pulses on pin 6, it must be connected to > the engine > module, as that module (ECU) is the source of the pulses. > > On a previous post, you stated that you measured 300k ohms on > the > secondary side of the coil. The manual says you should > measure between > 19 and 27K ohms. You might want to check this again. But if > you > replaced the dist, this may not be needed > > Now, if you really want to get down and dirty you could try > this, but be > warned, you do so at your own risk, you could damage something > here. > > If you have the schematic for the ignition system, it would > help. > > Remove the distributor cap. > With all the connectors attached, and the ignition switch in > the "run" > position, ground momentarily, pin 6. > At the same time as you momentarily ground pin 6, grab the > center rotor > of the distributor. If you get a feeling like somebody just > slugged > you, then the coil, and the control transistor are working > just fine. > Seriously though, this will test the coil. Personally I would > hold a > grounded screw driver very close to, but not touching, the > center rotor. > You should get a good spark that should jump at least 1/8 > inch. > > I've used small sewing pins to pierce the insulation of a > wire, then > attach a test lead alligator clip to that. > > The schematic for the ECU shows a transistor providing a > ground on the > lead attached to pin 6 of the distributor harness. So you > shouldn't be > able to damage the control module. The other side of the coil > is tied > to 12 VDC (OBTW did you measure for this voltage) > > I normally use a oscilioscope to trouble shoot these problems. > Meters > are usually only good for voltage, resistance,or current > levels. > > It's strange that the ECU isn't outputting any codes though, > are you > sure it's a steady constant pulse train. > > Did you check for fuel pressure. Cheap and dirty trick is to > slightly > loosen a gas line fitting and see how much gas squirts out > when you > crank the engine (see cautionary note above). > > Good luck > > > > wsnwill wrote: > > "Nobody U. Know" wrote: >   > > > Well, I checked to see if I was getting > pulses at pin 6 and >  > > all I got >   > > > was a steady voltage, unless it triggers so > fast my meter >  > > can?t read >   > > > it. Does a steady voltage indicate a bad > ECU? Now I am not >  > > smelling >   > > > any gas where I was before when I cranked > it. Does that mean >  > > anything? >   > > > Would any sensor not let it start? >  > > >  > > That probably means the coil is bad. It should be > pulsed as >  > > the pickup >  > > rotates with the cam. Steady + or - means it isn't > rotating. >  > > BTW, a Talon >  > > and Eclipse are the same car. I didn't know Eagle > sold a 1.8 >  > > talon though. >  > > Maybe it was off a Dodge Colt? The 1.8 has almost > nothing in >  > > common with the >  > > turbo versions, certainly not the coil. >  > > >   > > > Now my son tells me more. About 3 weeks ago > a belt broke not >  > > too far >   > > > from home and he drove it home. It > overheated. put new belt >  > > on and >   > > > started up and every thing ok til this > happened. Now he >  > > tells me that >   > > > the temp lite on instrurment panel would > stay on every time >  > > it cranked >   > > > and would go out in about 5 min, but the > guage showed >  > > normal. Also, he >   > > > said he put injector cleaner in and after > that it started >  > > missing and >   > > > spittered and sputtered worse and more > often. >  > > >  > > The overheat isn't good, but it usually isn't as > bad as it >  > > could be. There >  > > is a simple thermister for the gage and there is a > separate >  > > sender for the >  > > ECU to read...at least there is on the 2G turbo > version (1G >  > > cars have >  > > similar setup, plus one for the fans? For 1Gs, > thats all at >  > > the radiator >  > > too). The best sensor goes to the ECU and the > sloppy one to >  > > the gauge. That >  > > is to keep the driver from seeing the needle move > up and down >  > > a lot. In >  > > reality, the temps vary quite a bit during normal > driving. The >  > > ECU needs to >  > > know this, the driver only needs to know a problem. > In an >  > > overheat the >  > > sensors can be damaged and wont read correctly ever > again. >  > > Normally the >  > > gauge one starts to go crazy ($5 part). The ECU > sender is >  > > usually better >  > > quality ($$$) and doesn't usually get damaged. If > you had a >  > > logger you could >  > > see the temp and compare it to a cooking > thermometer. It may >  > > just need to be >  > > replaced. This only affects mileage and emissions. > Not worth >  > > it for a kids >  > > car. >  > > >  > > You may want to tell the kid how to deal with an > overheat >  > > condition in the >  > > future. Tell him to run the heat at full blast, > even in the >  > > summer, and >  > > coast to a stop with the engine off and the > ignition at ACC >  > > (so the heater >  > > blower works and the steering doesn't lock up). > It's better to >  > > sit for 30 >  > > minutes, drive 5, sit again, than to blow a head > gasket. >  > > >  > > As for the injector cleaner, tell him it is snake > oil. It may >  > > have removed >  > > some varnish, but they ended up on the plugs. > Modern gas >  > > doesn't leave >  > > varnish. BTW...how are the plugs? If he did use > cleaner, he >  > > could have >  > > fouled the plugs pretty badly from carbon in the > pistons. >  > > >  > > -- >  > > Todd Honea >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > .. > > > > Well, I put the new distributor in and still no fire. Plugs > have a > > nice gray coating-not fouled out. ECU still outputting > pulses. When I > > measured at pin 6 it was with the connector off at the > distributor > > cause I took it from the post that the transistor gave the > pulses to > > the dist. > > Tomorrow (actually today, I work nites) I am going to check > all > > sensors to see if one of them is not giving the ECU the > correct signal > > to it can send the spark command. And due to a previous post > I read > > here, I made sure the plug wires were on correctly. > > > > I re-examined the Ecu and noticed what appeared to me to be > wax on a > > few spots on the board but nothing bad. I work in > electronics so am > > familiar with those kind of problems. No burnt components or > bulging > > caps or corrosion. I got a pin out of the ECU so I?m gonna > start > > looking at sensor signals there. If there was something > wrong with the > > ECU would it still give a good self check code 1? I ordered > one and > > they are gonna hold it for me for a day or two. I hate to > easter-egg > > hunt for problems. > > > > I?ll let you know what the results were of checks. Thanks > for taking > > the time to help me. Sorry theis is taking so long. > > > > Bill > >

I disconnected a few sensors (air flow, barometric and idle speed sensor) and tried to start. It wouldn?t but the ECU displayed the correct code failures for those sensors. At least that part of the ECU works. Some more checks. With key on, I measured 5v at center pin of output transistor(green one). I measured 5v at C4 andd at pin42 of IC2. I put a down tower of coil (took cap off) and shorted to ground while trying to start and still have no spark. Cleared codes out of computer, tried to start, didn?t, but no error codes, just pulses (code 1). All voltages are getting to distributor. One question. Does the CRC filter mounted on top of dis do anything other than a tap for the tach. If it was bad would it have any effect. Just curious.

Anyway, I had it towed to the dealership and had them check it out. Guess what....the rebuilt distributor I bought and put in is bad. Pulling my hair out for 4 days and burned 3 days of vacation for a Bad new part. On the bright side, I learned alot about this car. Due to waiting on new new part to get here and dealership not open on Sat, it will be Monday before I will know for sure. I will let you all know.

Till Monday. Thanks.

Bill

"nirodac1" wrote: > > I disconnected a few sensors (air flow, barometric and idle > speed > > sensor) and tried to start. It wouldn?t but the ECU > displayed the > > correct code failures for those sensors. At least that part > of the ECU > > works. Some more checks. With key on, I measured 5v at > center pin of > > output transistor(green one). I measured 5v at C4 andd at > pin42 of > > IC2. I put a down tower of coil (took cap off) and shorted > to ground > > while trying to start and still have no spark. Cleared codes > out of > > computer, tried to start, didn?t, but no error codes, just > pulses > > (code 1). All voltages are getting to distributor. One > question. Does > > the CRC filter mounted on top of dis do anything other than > a tap for > > the tach. If it was bad would it have any effect. Just > curious. > > > > Anyway, I had it towed to the dealership and had them check > it out. > > Guess what....the rebuilt distributor I bought and put in is > bad. > > Pulling my hair out for 4 days and burned 3 days of vacation > for a Bad > > new part. On the bright side, I learned alot about this car. > Due to > > waiting on new new part to get here and dealership not open > on Sat, it > > will be Monday before I will know for sure. I will let you > all know. > > > > Till Monday. Thanks. > > > > Bill > > > Way to go with the checking of the ECU (disconnecting other > sensors to > verify operation). > Bummer that it was your rebuilt dist that had also failed. > It's tough > to find problems when the replacement parts are the problem > > You didn't say if you remeasured the secondary of the coil? > Did you try connecting pin 6 to ground? > Did you try the transistor tests? > > My guess would be that the secondary of the coil has(had) > failed, you > did mention once that you had measured 300K ohms on it. > The ECU has no way of knowing if the coil secondary actually > fires, > hence no error codes. > > The CRC filter, if the capacitor were short, would ground the > negative > side of the coil through a 2k resistor. If your tach is > working, then > the CRC is OK > Pin one of the CRC is tied directly to the negative side of > the coil, > same side as the control transistor. Momentarily grounding > this pin > should fire the coil. > Pin two is the shielded output to the tach, internally tied to > pin one, > through a 2K resistor. > Pin three is 12 VDC from the ignition switch, which is tied to > ground > through a capacitor.

Hi all,

The saga has come to an end. The car is up and running and my son is on his way. The sad part is my net worth has dropped considerably. Got the second rebuilt distributor and brought it to the dealer Monday. It wouldn?t work also. The gear wouldn?t mesh up. I was there and saw so it wasn?t like they were trying to bs me. But you never know. Anyway, I bought one from the dealer and its a go.

So a big heartfelt thanks to all. I?ve learned alot about this car and hopefully he will keep it for awhile. He has to til he pays me for it.

Again, thanks.

Bill