Where did anyone say the insurance company was "part and parcel"...
The insurance company probably has all the best intentions with this contest (not to mention the advertising it can bring) ... unfortunately, this is a prime venue for anyone with less scruples than the insurance company...
As an engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate the irony that equates an engine designed nearly 50 years ago in a car that is over 20 years old... and having the word "modern" inserted into the mix....
Jim Warman wrote:
He called it the "Hot Vapor Cycle" engine. It would be interesting to see where his concepts could go with today's technology. Heck, twenty-five years ago he was getting 50 mpg from a carbureted engine with no computer controls! Here's a clip from an article discussing his accomplishments with it:
"Now comes the really interesting part of this article that raises all the questions. Twenty years ago, the late, great racing mechanic and inventor Henry "Smokey" Yunick left the automotive engineers shaking their heads when he invented and patented his hot vapor engine. Based on the familiar four-cycle piston engine concept, instead of cooling the intake air to improve efficiency, he used coolant heat and exhaust waste heat to significantly warm the intake air. The purpose was to fully vaporize the fuel and to make the intake air expand in the intake system to generate positive pressure, like a supercharger. A small turbocharger was used as a "mixer" and as a check valve to prevent the expanding intake air from backflowing out of the intake system. With the heated, pressurized, homogenous mixture, the engine ran at air/fuel ratios considered impossibly lean, such as 22:1, on pump gasoline. The hot vapor engine made incredible power and was highly efficient, responsive, surprisingly emissions clean, and delivered fuel economy of 45-50 MPG in a compact car, and it did it all without computers, smog pumps or catalytic converters. Although initially denounced by the automotive world as a hoax, several prominent SAE engineers later published papers validating Smokey's theories and design. It was no hoax to Smokey. He considered it his greatest achievement. However, the automotive giants had their own designs for increasing fuel economy and controlling emissions, and Smokey's simple and cost-efficient engine package was ignored. Today, Smokey's designs are buried somewhere in the U.S. Patent Office
That must be one hell of a bolt-on modification!
Perhaps, in discussions with Progressive, it was mention the safety improvement of carrying less fuel, or a fuel hybrid that was non-explosive, and Progressive bought into it as a way to improve income while reducing outlay. Why, they might even give a 10% discount to anyone who would buy and use such a vehicle.
:>Where did anyone say the insurance company was "part and parcel"... :>
:>The insurance company probably has all the best intentions with this contest :>(not to mention the advertising it can bring) ... unfortunately, this is a :>prime venue for anyone with less scruples than the insurance company... :>
So you think Progressive Insurance Co. is filled with gullible fools? I don't see the less scrupled folks getting through the evaluation process and testing.
:>On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:32:54 -0400, Sarah Czepiel :>wrote: :>
:>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:27:30 -0400, "C. E. White" :>>wrote: :>>
:>>:>
:>>
:>>Again, we'll see soon enough. Although I'm curious why you think :>>Progressive Ins. Co. would be part and parcel to a scam. :>
:>Perhaps, in discussions with Progressive, it was mention the safety :>improvement of carrying less fuel, or a fuel hybrid that was :>non-explosive, and Progressive bought into it as a way to improve :>income while reducing outlay. Why, they might even give a 10% discount :>to anyone who would buy and use such a vehicle.
Is that a scam? My point is how are people going to be scammed, including Progressive if the car and it's supposed claims are tested? Is Progressive going to hand out 10 million $ and never open the hood of the car?
:>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:58:13 -0400, Michael Johnson wrote: :>> :>> :>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> :>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:52:04 -0400, "C. E. White"
:>> :>> wrote: :>> :>> :>> :>> :>
:>> :>> :>Ed :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> You're sure? See the last paragraph. I guess we'll see soon enough. :>> :>
:>> :>Heck, I've seen people kill their spouse for $25k of life insurance. It :>> :>isn't a stretch at all for this numb nuts to think he can fleece :>> :>Progressive out of $10 million with a scam he invented. I guess just :>> :>the fact he registered makes him legitimate? :>> :>> With you logic it's a good thing you don't work for Progressive Ins. :>> Company. :) :>
:>You're a trusting soul, Sarah.
You assume quite a lot, Michael. Trust but verify is my motto. IF I had $10 million dollars to give away I'd listen to all sorts of people and their ideas. Listening is free.
:>I have lived long enough to hear :>thousands of miracle invention claims for just about anything :>imaginable. Maybe because I'm an engineer it makes me cynical when I :>hear someone had an epiphany occur to them in their garage that lets :>them skip all the R&D a company like Toyota does year after year to :>bring a 55 mpg hybrid car to market for $20k-$23k. If getting 100 mpg :>from an old Mustang was that easy it would have been done by now. :>Progressive doesn't have to worry about losing their $10 million anytime :>soon. ;)
Plenty of engineers in my family Michael, all IEEE members, as well as two who graduated from GMI, and I can't say there's a cynical one among them. My father was an engineer at GE, an Elfun member, and when he retired the QC Manager for the WD Division, US. When he died his design work for GE during WWII and the subsequent Cold War years was still classified. My background therefore gives me a different opinion of engineers as not that of cynics but of skeptics when evaluating wild claims or seemingly impossible events. YMMV of course.
:>> :>>
To me, Smokey is a "God"... That man forgot more than most people ever hope to know....
Back to the point... I'll bet that you and I could cook up an old car (sorry, you can't look under the hood), concoct some wonderful scenarios and claim some astonishing numbers (sorry, I have no empirical data... trust me).... With the right investors (and a 10 megabuck prize in the offing - a prize that does NOT need to be won) you and I could cook the books and likely walk away with 10 or 15 megabucks each.
With gas at 5 bux a gallon, now is the time to strike... the suckers will never know what hit them....
Damn... if I wasn't so honest, I could make something like that work...
Two things come to mind. First, these people that are going to enter Progressive's contest are likely to be wannabes with a magical black box that the judges are going to crack open and then laugh their asses off at what they see. Second, Progressive knows the odds of them losing their $10 million is slim to none. It is an advertising gimmick.
Skeptical is a better term. Either way, I, or your engineer relatives, aren't holding our collective breath waiting for a 100+ mpg ICE. Especially, one conceived by a mechanic using a low tech Mustang. I guess since he was featured by a TV station he has instant credibility. Here is a quote from the WGAL web article:
"Pelmear told television station WNWO that the car hasn't traded power for miles per gallon. Pelmear said the car has 400 horsepower, goes well over 100 mph and can go from zero to 60 mph in three seconds."
What are the odds this mechanic has a 400 hp, 100+ mpg, 0-60 mph in three seconds Mustang siting in his garage? The very claim is beyond being laughable. It is clear that the reporter that wasted their time on this story has about as much knowledge of mechanics as my cat.
:>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:44:08 -0400, Michael Johnson wrote: :>> :>> :>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> :>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:58:13 -0400, Michael Johnson wrote: :>> :>> :>> :>> :>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> :>> :>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:52:04 -0400, "C. E. White"
:>> :>> :>> wrote: :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>
:>> :>> :>> :>Ed :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>> You're sure? See the last paragraph. I guess we'll see soon enough. :>> :>> :>
:>> :>> :>Heck, I've seen people kill their spouse for $25k of life insurance. It :>> :>> :>isn't a stretch at all for this numb nuts to think he can fleece :>> :>> :>Progressive out of $10 million with a scam he invented. I guess just :>> :>> :>the fact he registered makes him legitimate? :>> :>> :>> :>> With you logic it's a good thing you don't work for Progressive Ins. :>> :>> Company. :) :>> :>
:>> :>You're a trusting soul, Sarah. :>> :>> You assume quite a lot, Michael. Trust but verify is my motto. IF I had :>> $10 million dollars to give away I'd listen to all sorts of people and :>> their ideas. Listening is free. :>
:>Two things come to mind. First, these people that are going to enter :>Progressive's contest are likely to be wannabes with a magical black box :>that the judges are going to crack open and then laugh their asses off :>at what they see.
It's going to cost them $5K each as an entry fee. That seems a bit steep for a cheap laugh.
:>Second, Progressive knows the odds of them losing :>their $10 million is slim to none.
Actuarial's....
:>It is an advertising gimmick.
And so? But what if it isn't?
:>> :>I have lived long enough to hear :>> :>thousands of miracle invention claims for just about anything :>> :>imaginable. Maybe because I'm an engineer it makes me cynical when I :>> :>hear someone had an epiphany occur to them in their garage that lets :>> :>them skip all the R&D a company like Toyota does year after year to :>> :>bring a 55 mpg hybrid car to market for $20k-$23k. If getting 100 mpg :>> :>from an old Mustang was that easy it would have been done by now. :>> :>Progressive doesn't have to worry about losing their $10 million anytime :>> :>soon. ;) :>> :>> Plenty of engineers in my family Michael, all IEEE members, as well as two :>> who graduated from GMI, and I can't say there's a cynical one among them. :>> My father was an engineer at GE, an Elfun member, and when he retired the :>> QC Manager for the WD Division, US. When he died his design work for GE :>> during WWII and the subsequent Cold War years was still classified. My :>> background therefore gives me a different opinion of engineers as not that :>> of cynics but of skeptics when evaluating wild claims or seemingly :>> impossible events. YMMV of course. :>
:>Skeptical is a better term.
Ya see? I've never thought you were a cynical person Michael. :)
Either way, I, or your engineer relatives, :>aren't holding our collective breath waiting for a 100+ mpg ICE. :>Especially, one conceived by a mechanic using a low tech Mustang. I :>guess since he was featured by a TV station he has instant credibility. :> Here is a quote from the WGAL web article: :>
:>"Pelmear told television station WNWO that the car hasn't traded power :>for miles per gallon. Pelmear said the car has 400 horsepower, goes well :>over 100 mph and can go from zero to 60 mph in three seconds." :>
:>What are the odds this mechanic has a 400 hp, 100+ mpg, 0-60 mph in :>three seconds Mustang siting in his garage? The very claim is beyond :>being laughable. It is clear that the reporter that wasted their time :>on this story has about as much knowledge of mechanics as my cat.
I guess we'll see if Pelmear plunks down his $5K entry fee. :)
Cheers, Sarah
Burning up the gas.....
2004 Mach 1 2005 C6
They aren't. Assuming the prize offer is real and not an Internet story, they are merely offering a prize for the first car to get 100MPG the same as the company(s) that offered "The X Prize" for the first team to build a vehicle and go into outer space and back to a safe landing. They don't necessarily have anything to do with the participants and he will only get the prize when he satisfies their criteria.
If I open the dictionary to the word "naive", I imagine I would see your picture there....
Where did I say I think this company is filled with gullible fools????? You seem to be quite adept at trying to put words in peoples mouths without ever really learning anything.
Progressive doesn't have to do anything - not even open the hood.... They have supplied the impetus but not the deed... All that is needed is for some enterprizing soul with a clapped out old Mustang to ask for "seed" money.. The insurance company will be innocent of any wrong doing (you can now get the knot out of your knickers). I finbd it hard to believe that someone can be this naive...
I think Sara is a gullible fool.... and it would be nice if he/she would read what is written without inserting bullshit...
Take a look at the video.... we are looking at several different cars... The green one has a Holley carb... the black one has an "official contender" badge....
The car supposedly gets 110 MPG... the insurance company spec'd a car that can do 100 MPG (yes, there is other criteria) and this one apparently beats that hands down - so we are told... What is keeping him from claiming the prize?
We are told that the 0 to 60 time is three seconds.... The Bugatti Veyron.... 8.0 litres, 16 cylinders, 4 turbochargers... can only muster 2.8 seconds... The Z06 Corvette comes in at 3.7 seconds and the Dodge Viper SRT10 comes in at 3.5 seconds....
Can I please have some of what you are smoking????
It runs on garbage.
The X Prize Foundation is completely legit. Progressive Insurance mearly bought the right to put their name on it (like stadiums :) ). The Automitive X Prize is also endorsed by the US Department of Energy.
The entrants are competing for a prize and if they qualify for entry, then they qualify. But nobody simply steps up and gets an entry into this race. It is not enough to simply claim your vehicle can perform the way it should. The entrants must provide designs, drawings, and other data to the X Prize evaluation committee to establish that the entrant stands a chance of competing and, more importantly, can actually produce the vehicle when the race is over. This includes a business plan for the production of the systems down the road (heh).
Note also, there's an emissions standard that all entrants must acheive to qualify.
So, unless Palmear is a really exceptional con man (and I'm not saying he couldn' be :) ), then he'll disappear shortly as the folks at X Prize review his documentation and discover whatever he's done. If he actually makes it into the qualifying race at the end of this year, then that's a really, really, really interesting result ;).
I'm a show-me engineer as well, so until I get more data I'm going to lean on the skeptical side. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Mustang gets to the qualifying round. However, even if it should I don't see it winning the race. There are teams in this already passing
150 mpg and I've seen nothing at all about the Mustang's emissions, and those count too. While there will be a couple of events that the Mustang's power will be probably be superior, there are far more events that significantly limit how effective the extra specific output will be.Smokey Yunick would love this guy :). Mr. Yunick was a high school drop-out who got engineers scratching their heads with his ideas. And if Palmear is working the rules somehow to win a race, well, Smokey would see that as a thing of beauty, imho :D.
Ten Million is nothing to Progressive. Pocket change. Change they can write off their gross income as "advertising", thus reducing their tax liability.
Wouldn't you invest $10M if it wasn't actually "out of your pocket", if you thought you could get a couple of Billion in return?
The heads of corporations get BIG incomes to make money for investors. It's not their money they are playing with. Look how many corps have lost billions and the CEO is still the CEO. The corporations don't actually pay taxes.... the clients pay the taxes but don't realize it. Corporations don't pay for higher wages and benefits; the clients pay the increases. Corporations don't pay fines. The clients pay for those, too.
Progressive may never have seen the car. They may base their decision on "documents", white papers, etc, submitted to them.
If they get scammed, they can write it off, not say anything about what the loss was for to the investors, and go on about their business.
In the government it would be just another "Black Project"; so secret that they get the funding without disclosing what the project is except to a small handfull. At some point, while the agency heads are out playing golf on the new course, they can decide to tell the select group of people that the project didn't work and has been scrapped. Then they invite those on the committee to drop by the clubhouse for drinks and a round of golf.
:>If I open the dictionary to the word "naive", I imagine I would see your :>picture there.... :>
:>Where did I say I think this company is filled with gullible fools????? You :>seem to be quite adept at trying to put words in peoples mouths without ever :>really learning anything. :>
:>Progressive doesn't have to do anything - not even open the hood.... They :>have supplied the impetus but not the deed... All that is needed is for some :>enterprizing soul with a clapped out old Mustang to ask for "seed" money.. :>The insurance company will be innocent of any wrong doing (you can now get :>the knot out of your knickers). I finbd it hard to believe that someone can :>be this naive... :>
:>I think Sara is a gullible fool.... and it would be nice if he/she would :>read what is written without inserting bullshit...
If you look at what I've said Jim, instead of putting words in my mouth, you'll find that all I've done is take a few pokes at you nay sayers, " I'll guess we'll have to wait and see " while providing a link to the contest information.
Since when does posting a link and saying," let's wait and see," make one gullible, naive, or a fool?
I'll forgive your accusation that I'm a drug user.
:>Take a look at the video.... we are looking at several different cars... The :>green one has a Holley carb... the black one has an "official contender" :>badge.... :>
:>The car supposedly gets 110 MPG... the insurance company spec'd a car that :>can do 100 MPG (yes, there is other criteria) and this one apparently beats :>that hands down - so we are told... What is keeping him from claiming the :>prize?
:>We are told that the 0 to 60 time is three seconds.... The Bugatti :>Veyron.... 8.0 litres, 16 cylinders, 4 turbochargers... can only muster 2.8 :>seconds... The Z06 Corvette comes in at 3.7 seconds and the Dodge Viper :>SRT10 comes in at 3.5 seconds.... :>
:>Can I please have some of what you are smoking????
:>> :>Where did anyone say the insurance company was "part and parcel"... :>> :>
:>> :>The insurance company probably has all the best intentions with this :>> contest :>> :>(not to mention the advertising it can bring) ... unfortunately, this is :>> a :>> :>prime venue for anyone with less scruples than the insurance company... :>> :>
:>>
:>> So you think Progressive Insurance Co. is filled with gullible fools? I :>> don't see the less scrupled folks getting through the evaluation process :>> and testing. :>> :>
:>On Jul 4, 9:19 pm, "WindsorFox" wrote: :>> Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> > Again, we'll see soon enough. Although I'm curious why you think :>> > Progressive Ins. Co. would be part and parcel to a scam. :>>
:>> They aren't. Assuming the prize offer is real and not an Internet :>> story, they are merely offering a prize for the first car to get 100MPG :>> the same as the company(s) that offered "The X Prize" for the first team :>> to build a vehicle and go into outer space and back to a safe landing. :>> They don't necessarily have anything to do with the participants and he :>> will only get the prize when he satisfies their criteria. :>>
:>
:>The X Prize Foundation is completely legit. Progressive Insurance :>mearly bought the right to put their name on it (like stadiums :) ). :>The Automitive X Prize is also endorsed by the US Department of :>Energy.
:>The entrants are competing for a prize and if they qualify for entry, :>then they qualify. But nobody simply steps up and gets an entry into :>this race. It is not enough to simply claim your vehicle can perform :>the way it should. The entrants must provide designs, drawings, and :>other data to the X Prize evaluation committee to establish that the :>entrant stands a chance of competing and, more importantly, can :>actually produce the vehicle when the race is over. This includes a :>business plan for the production of the systems down the road (heh). :>
:>Note also, there's an emissions standard that all entrants must :>acheive to qualify. :>
:>So, unless Palmear is a really exceptional con man (and I'm not saying :>he couldn' be :) ), then he'll disappear shortly as the folks at X :>Prize review his documentation and discover whatever he's done. If he :>actually makes it into the qualifying race at the end of this year, :>then that's a really, really, really interesting result ;). :>
:>I'm a show-me engineer as well, so until I get more data I'm going to :>lean on the skeptical side.
Careful. When I said, " I guess we'll have to see" , I was called gullible, naive, and a fool.
:)
I'll be pleasantly surprised if the :>Mustang gets to the qualifying round. However, even if it should I :>don't see it winning the race. There are teams in this already passing :>150 mpg and I've seen nothing at all about the Mustang's emissions, :>and those count too. While there will be a couple of events that the :>Mustang's power will be probably be superior, there are far more :>events that significantly limit how effective the extra specific :>output will be. :>
:>Smokey Yunick would love this guy :). Mr. Yunick was a high school :>drop-out who got engineers scratching their heads with his ideas. And :>if Palmear is working the rules somehow to win a race, well, Smokey :>would see that as a thing of beauty, imho :D.
LMAO. Great post Dan, thanks for your valuable input.
:>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>
:>> Again, we'll see soon enough. Although I'm curious why you think :>> Progressive Ins. Co. would be part and parcel to a scam. :>> :>
:> They aren't. Assuming the prize offer is real and not an Internet :>story, they are merely offering a prize for the first car to get 100MPG :>the same as the company(s) that offered "The X Prize" for the first team :>to build a vehicle and go into outer space and back to a safe landing. :>They don't necessarily have anything to do with the participants and he :>will only get the prize when he satisfies their criteria.
Common sense at last. :)
:>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:19:10 -0500, "WindsorFox" :>> wrote: :>> :>> :>Sarah Czepiel wrote: :>> :>
:>> :>> Again, we'll see soon enough. Although I'm curious why you think :>> :>> Progressive Ins. Co. would be part and parcel to a scam. :>> :>> :>> :>
:>> :> They aren't. Assuming the prize offer is real and not an Internet :>> :>story, they are merely offering a prize for the first car to get 100MPG :>> :>the same as the company(s) that offered "The X Prize" for the first team :>> :>to build a vehicle and go into outer space and back to a safe landing. :>> :>They don't necessarily have anything to do with the participants and he :>> :>will only get the prize when he satisfies their criteria. :>> :>> Common sense at last. :) :>
:> Um, what the HELL is up with your news client? Your replies are the :>only ones on the entirety of groups I read that don't change color for :>quoted text. It's those colons before the > that are throwing it off and :>I've read other people using Agent as well. Is that something you did :>purposefully?
Why don't we ask the group? Is anyone else having the same problem as WF with my posts? If not then I have to assume the problem is on your end.
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