Oil question What the manual says, vs. what Dad says.

Hi, all, I have a 96 Saturn SL, and it's begun to burn oil when I really give it the gas. I can see a cloud behind me. My Dad told me that I might be able to alleviate that by using 10w40, instead of the 5w30 the manual calls for. I live in Michigan, so it's going to get cold. Is there any truth to the statement that this will stop the oil from burning? And, will it hurt my engine, if I switch? I'm under the impression that the thicker oil will make starting harder, especially in the winter, and that if the oil is too thick, it won't protect the engine. Any thoughts or insights? I'd appreciate them, Tedrick

Reply to
TSMANGOD
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What year? How many miles? How much oil is it consuming and under what type of normal driving conditions?

Background: Saturn engines tend to burn oil after they have been broken in (> 60K miles), but from what I've been able to gather listening to other owners and confirmed in reading this newsgroup, burning a quart every 1500 miles is "normal" and does not appear to have a major affect on the vehicle's reliability or longevity. You just need to check it frequently and add to keep it full between changes.

The 10W40 oil or other off the shelf additives would likely help reduce your consumption slightly, but I personally would not recommend it for use in MI during the winter. If you do a google search on "Saturn oil consumption" or "oil burning", it should turn up at least a couple of different threads over the last year in this newsgroup that provided a detailed cylinder soak procedure that seemed to help others unstick rings and halve their consumption.

Good luck.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Shuman

If you are going to a 10W base oil, it would be better to use 10W-30, as the 10W-40 doesn't meet Saturn specifications. Your impression is pretty much correct. The thicker oil will put more strain on the starter, but won't harm the engine. I've run 10W-30 during the summer and 5W-30 during the winter. I'm currently using Mobil 1 10W-30 and plan on using it this winter. The better cold flow capability of the synthetic should help. The Saturn ('96 SL2) is now my son's. Our 2 other vehicles both use 10W-30 year-round and I'd rather just deal with the 1 weight of oil.

Ken

Reply to
Napalm Heart

Why not use 5W30 then? Even GM has pretty much stopped recommending 10W30 for anything. At normal operating temperatures, 10W30 and 5W30 have virtually the same viscosity. At 0 degrees, the 5W30 will flow better. And a conventional 5W30 will flow better than 10W30 Mobil 1 at 0 degrees, although this is likely not true at significantly lower temperatures, since the Mobil one does not thicken as much as the temperature decreases below 0 as most conventional oils. I have seen nothing that indicated 5W30 is more likely to break down with normal usage than 10W30, so I see no advantage to using 10W30 unless it is cheaper. In a relatively warm climate, the difference is trivial. However, even in balmy North Carolina we have a few days where the temperature is below zero (centigrade, not Fahrenheit), so I think 5W30 is the correct "all season" choice for me.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

I run 10w30 all year here in NY. Before I rebuilt the engine due to oil burning, I would throw in a quart of 10w40 here and there......

I wouldn't hesitate to run 10w30 through the winters and 10w40 in the summer if you want.

Reply to
BANDIT2941

Reply to
Matt hotmail

There is a TSB out on saturns burning oil.

In short, if you soak the pistons overnight by putting GM top end cleaner in the cylinders, it unsticks the rings, and tends to greatly improve the oil burning issue.

Hunt around with dejanews in the archives - you'll probably find it. Search for excessive oil consumption TSB and you should find it.

Reply to
Kirk Kohnen

Going to 10W40 will cause more harm than good especially if you are in a cold weather area.

As others have mentioned, a dose of Top Engine Cleaner is said to often make a big difference in oil consumption on these engines..

Reply to
Robert Hancock

Tedrick: If it's not too late, as far as reading posts and getting a solution, I found that owner's manuals recommend a range of SAE's, so - have a look at what synthetic engine lube, like Amsoil's 5w-30 options and maybe a fuel additive like Amsoil's P.I. You can see these at

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My Dad, RIP, only knew what his dad taught him about oil, but if he were alive today, he would be first one to try something better. He was the first in town to build a guitar from scratch. He died before he could see a farm tractor start in 40 below with Amsoil.

Reply to
Rudy Hiebert

Tedrick,

Matt,

You can stop this oil burning permanently. Here's the story. I bought a Saturn '95 SL2 a couple of years ago and the engine was burning oil quite miserably- at least a quart every 500 miles. I lost track of the oil level and the engine gave up the ghost while on I75. So after I had a second engine put in the car I searched for best ways to treat the Saturn. I found out about bypass filters, these secondary filters that are so thick that they remove particles much smaller and more effectively than the OEM filter can. The government did and is doing tests on these filters and find them excellent. I decided to install the Frantz filter made by

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Not only does the filter eliminate engine wear providing 2-3x longer engine life (proven by the SAE), it also helps the moving engine components to seat properly and thus will lower oil consumption. In fact my engine now has eliminated the oil burning completely! You may not believe me but the only remedy is to prove to yourself by doing a little research on the internet. And if you are so inclined it takes about a couple days of planning and 2-3 days of work. The effort is worth it because in the end you get a cleaner/ quieter running engine and the peace of mind when it stops burning oil.

Here are some pictures of my installation:

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Check this out:
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Reply to
Mark

...so this is not a typical relocation kid, rather a second filter, right? How do you get pressure to the secondary filter?, a pump or some type of splitter off of the oem filter? (just curious) Cool pic - like the gauge too.

I was reading with some relocation kits it was critical to get the right filter that either had the valve built in or not depending on the automaker, and the concern was it would take a while to get oil flow on start-up.

Reply to
Jonnie Santos

Ok, so the above engine is irrelevant because you never tried this technique on it.

Did the new engine burn any oil before you put this kit on it?

Where's the evidence this will make an engine STOP burning oil? The evidence claims it may keep a good engine from developing an oil burning problem.

-DanD

Reply to
Dan Duncan

No problem, curiosity is good. It is a second filter that operates in bypass of the original filter that is on the vehicle. The flow through this filter is tiny - only 8-10cc (1 inch squared) per second and thus the pressure can come from the main oil pump. It allows the primary filter to do it's job of providing lubricant free from large particles to the engine internals but squeezes out particles 1-2 micrometers in size 100%. The regular filters are made of pleated paper and only filter down to 30 micrometers. To feed oil pressure to the filter, you must use either a sandwich adapter or a tee. The sandwich adapter acts as a sandwich between the engine block and the OEM spin-on filter. The tee must be installed in place of the oil pressure sender. You do not replace the oil pressure sender, just relocate it (what the tee is for). FYI, the OPS turns on the light that warns when oil pressure is low. You can get all the necessary plumbing and hoses from hardware stores and automotive parts stores. Use RTV for the thread sealant - I've found that it makes perfect seals that are resistant to vibration. You also need to find a place to mount the big filter. On large trucks it is a piece of cake but with smaller cars you have to be more creative. With my Saturn, I bought a battery relocation kit and relocated it to the trunk.

SAE had determined that the particles that cause the most wear in engines come in sizes from 20 to 5 micrometers. They say that 70% of engine wear comes from contaminated oil thus if you were to put on a bypass filter that gets the crud out of the oil you will get almost

70% more engine life. And when the oil picks up the dirt deposits (like sludge) in the engine the BP filter removes this dirt thus your engine internals get cleaned up pretty good. Engine noise decreases and you get better performance.

With either the Frantz, Motorguard, or Gulf Coast filters, the diverting of some oil flow is so minimal that it does not effect the main filter or the amount of flow to the engine. In fact there is a check valve in the oil pump that allows more flow when the engine needs it. Unless you drag race your car the oil pump will not come close to its maximum flow output. When the BP filter is saturated with oil, you can basically neglect its effect during startup. There is one exception however, when you change the BP filter, the new filter isn't saturated with oil. The oil flow through the inlet hose to the BP filter is higher when there is air in the system because the air moves quickly through the filter. But the BP filter is saturated in a couple seconds and then the oil flows at the normal 8-10cc rate. For this reason I screwed on a shutoff valve to it and only partially open this valve when a new BP filter is installed. I then open the valve completely after a minute of engine running. This is when I know the BP filter is saturated with oil. A ball valve can be bought at a hardware store for a couple of bucks.

In any case, it is a good idea for your OEM spin-on filter to have what is called an anti-drainback valve. This valve closes when the engine is turned off and keeps the oil that is coating the engine from draining into the oil pan. It helps to reduce startup wear because more oil is coating the inside of your engine when you turn the key. A bypass filter will clean out your oil thus you won't have to change either the OEM oil filter or the oil as often.

Reply to
Mark

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Did the cables for the remote battery go through the cabin or under the car? Hope you get a bazillion miles out of your Saturn! (smile)

Reply to
Jonnie Santos

If I want to do that with my ION, will I have to relocate the battery to the trunk?

Reply to
Kirk Kohnen

Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it isn't going to help. In SOME cases, it MAY help prevent oil burning from happening(like if you are one who never changes the oil) but if you keep up with your oil changes you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem then if you have a secondary filter. In the majority of oil burning cases with Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings. Replace those rings with a different brand and your oil burning will be eliminated. For instance, I have Sealed Power rings in my engine now.

An anti drainback valve in an oil filter doesn't keep oil that is coating engine components on those engine components. Thats impossible. The valve keeps the oil filter full of oil; so on startup there is less of a lapse of oil pressure.

Reply to
BANDIT2941

The second engine had 40k miles when it was put in and yes it burned a quart every 2-3k miles. AFAIK, all older unmodified Saturns with the

1.9L burn oil.

I have no evidence that it will STOP burning oil, only that it will help greatly reduce the oil burning. I had noticed that the oil burning tends to get worse when the oil is dirtier. This makes sense to me because the carbon, or soot, deposited in the oil tends to absorb heat. When this happens the oil gets hotter and is more prone to flashing near the piston rings. Several mechanics (I don't know their names) that have posted on the internet say that a few of the major problems with the 1.9L are the piston rings tend to get stuck and also a few problems with valve seals, and sludge around the timing belt.

When I read quite a few of the reports from various newsgroups from people who HAD tried the Frantz filter and also read a few of the gov's research articles I decided that the potential benefits outweighed the risk.

Reply to
Mark

eliminated. For

How much does that cost? I wouldn't think it would be cost effective once you pass 100,000 miles (?) ron

Reply to
Ron Herfurth

Would you think that 2k oil change intervals would be enough? This is the interval that I performed on my second engine with good ol' Castol GTX and it would still burn a quart every 2-3k miles.

OK, that's another way to fix the problem, I'm sure. Have you ever installed a bypass filter before on your own car? I didn't think so. Here's an article of interest:

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This states that the main causes of engine oil consumption aredirty oil, worn engine components and leaks. This suggests that ifyour engine isn't worn out, you can install a bypass filter and itwill get rid of the dirty oil problem, thus you won't have stickingpiston rings, metal shavings/soot inbetween the valve and valve seals,etc. Engine oil in the Saturn turns black in a very short amount oftime. The nature of the piston ring is that it expands against thecylinder for seal between the combustion chamber and the crankcase. With a *HOT* efficient engine like the Saturn's, normal dyno engineoil has too low a flashpoint to survive this heat thus it flashes offand carbon crap sticks to the piston rings. I don't have anyexperience nor the necessary tools to take apart an engine myself. Ofcourse you can have someone fix or replace your engine for severalhundred dollars. Anyone who can't fix an engine themselves can stillinstall a bypass filter in a couple of days and see good resultswithout too much money (couple hundred bucks). The benefits that youget from the BP filter are cost savings on new oil, filter elements,and engine repairs.

Reply to
Mark

Possibly. One of the guys from the

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newsgroup removed the bumper off his truck and installed one in the front of the car. He said it only took 15 minutes to remove and he had enough room for BP filters for the engine and transmission. You might feel safer to put a bypass filter on the battery mount. You can buy relocation kits from Ebay and they are cheaper. Most of those have a 20' positive battery cable and a 3' ground cable. I would buy an additional cable for the ground. That way installation is alot easier and you can attach the negative cable to the fuse box (where the battery cable is attached). My brother-in-law, who is a certified Saturn mechanic & put in the second engine, said not to use the shorter ground because the chassis electrical connection from the trunk isn't as clean. Not sure if this is true or not but with 2 20' cables you can easily remove the setup in a couple of minutes. Also get at least 4 gauge, 2 gauge is preferrable but anything larger may make it harder when drilling the two holes in the side of the trunk (see below)

The battery relocation was fun. It took a good part of a Saturday afternoon during college summer break. You need a large drill bit or dremel bit > 1" because the battery cables are pretty thick. Find the place where the trunk sheet metal meets the outside and drill there. Use rubber grommets for the holes where the cables are routed through the trunk - they should be large enough to fit over the battery terminals and the plastic insulation stuff I mention below. The sheet metal in the side of the trunk a foot away from the gas cap is only

1/8" thick on the Saturn. This is the one metal corner that might cut into the cable (and short positive to negative). You don't want this (lots of sparks!!) so you want the rubber grommets. Be careful with these holes; measure the outside diameter of the middle of the rubber grommet and match the hole diameter as close as possible. If you have a drill bit large enough this is the best solution. Put the rubber grommet on the cable before you pull the cable through the hole. You need to be careful to strap the cables away from suspension parts. I used lots of twist ties and attached a few clamps to the frame under the doors. I also used that plastic battery cable wrap stuff that I got from Meijers - forget what it is called. You need it because it helps protect the cable insulation. Wrap this stuff for the entire length of the cable minus the cable ends. It comes in different colors and I wrapped the positive cable in red and the 20' ground cable in black plastic. If your battery is a side mount terminal you might have to drill holes through the side of the plastic battery box

- takes a couple minutes.

Thanks for reading! :)}

Reply to
Mark

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