Electronic stability enhancement and maneuverability

No. They will reduce some of the effects of drivers over-maneuvering and losing control.

One of the reports I read said these systems are highly advisable. I have no experience with them, but our new car (to be delivered this week) has this feature.

If anyone has any comments, I would like to know how owners like them.

My experience dates back maybe 5-6 years or so, but I was less than impressed by the behavior of the BMW X5. It was so intrusive that it would not allow you to drift around a U-turn on packed snow; whereas in a normal vehicle turning the wheel and nailing the gas would spin the vehicle around neatly, the stability control on the BMW would simply detect slip and bring one to a controlled stop.

That said, the GMC Yukon of similar vintage had a stability control system that allowed one to get ludicrously stupid on snow/ice and still maintain control. I don't recall trying the U-turn thing in that vehicle however, so it might have annoyed me similarly.

nate

They would seem to contribute to driver and occupant safety much as ABS, safety belts, crumple zones, collabsible steering column, etc. do.

Do you know if they function at the election of the driver, or are they generally always on ?

Car & Driver just tested some SUV's, the ones with stability control were very much slower in the lane change and much less G-force was allowed on the skidpad. It's in the May issue.

systems may reduce

Ah, that was what I suspected. I doubt if the system has any idea of the actual friction coefficient between tires and surface. Therefore it must be prgrammed to activate at some g level or rate substantially below the limit on dry pavement. Thus, while it may not reduce maneuverability on slippery surfaces, I suspected it would reduce it on dry pavement. Being an old sensor engineer, I doubted they had any way to actually detect a true skid- tires slipping laterally, or picking up a very high slip angle. A true slip angle sensor for tires would be extremely high tech.

I certainly hope ESC is more useful than ABS. Even the IIHS finally gave up trying to prove ABS provided a net safety benefit. Billions wasted on some Bureaucrat's pipe dream.

Early tests of ESC are not all that inspiring. See

or . I suspect it will be another govermentinspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous formaking exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going backand verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big timeafter trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiringESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats geta two fer screw job. I am not against safety belts, or side guard beams, or safety cage construction, or crumple zones. On the otherhand I think air bags not only don't improve safety, they actually decrease it (compared to just wearing seat belts).

Ed

On the cars i've the dynamic stability systems can be deselected.

See

suspect it will be another goverment> inspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous for> making exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going back> and verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big time> after trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiring> ESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats get> a two fer screw job. It is literally impossible for the human being to pump the brake as rapidly as an ABS and there are only a few off-road cars that offer the wheel-selectable braking available on ABS. And there are virtually no drivers with the skills to use such a braking system. ABS is one of the biggest improvements in vehicle safety I'm aware of.

Be sure to read this quote from the Pop Mechanics article: There is little question that the rise of computerized controls has made cars safer.

I think that ECS can serve a useful purpose for the many people who drive in a safe and sane fashion, but find themselves in that rare out- of-control situation. There are some of us who have not fully matured and will use ESC as a way to drive on the edge, knowing (or hoping) it will rescue them. And there are the fools that will deselect the system under the incorrect assumption that they are better drivers without it.

Many of us could likely drive our entire lives acccident free without ESC. It does provide some added measure of safety. Whether that added measure is worth the money is at least open to question in my mind.

This is an interesting problem - and I've now read two articles in the last week talking about how improved safety equipment may actually cause more damage because people end up taking bigger risks.

Article #1 - NASCAR and the COT - it's safer, thus the drivers will take more risks and possibly suffer MORE injuries. (somewhere on NASCAR.com)

Article #2 - Safer playground equipment results in bored kids and more injuries because the bored kids take more risks.

I don't buy into ESC and I sure don't want it mandatory on my cars, but I have no problem with other people buying it. I don't like air bags either, but I like my ABS in the winter - you don't stop shorter, but you do stop straighter.

I bet ESC will end up with DRLs and Air Bags and ABS in the "nice in theory, but didn't stop people from crashing into each other" file. Maybe if people just learned how to DRIVE we wouldn't need all this mandatory crap.

Ray

Analagous to what I would call the SUV syndrome. Drivers of those oversized cars as a group seem to drive as though safety is less of a concern because of vehicle size. And they seem to get into an unusual amount of trouble come winter.

risks.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17770831/site/newsweek/>

See

Isuspect it will be another goverment> > inspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous for> > making exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going back> > and verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big time> > after trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiring> > ESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats get> > a two fer screw job.>

Where are the statistics to back up your opinion? While it is true ABS has been associated with the reduction in some type of accidents, it has also been associated with an increase in other types of accidents. The net is a slight to no overall reduction. Hardly the safety boon we were lead to beleive would result, and in light of literally billions of dollars spent on installing and maintaing ABS systems, it has to rank as a giant rip off. You probably could have saved as many lives by bailing the money spent and stacking it along I-95 as a guard rail.

Ed

...and from what I've read, 80%+ of *current* SUV's on the road are also already equipped with ESC.

See

Isuspect it will be another goverment>>> inspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous for>>> making exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going back>>> and verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big time>>> after trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiring>>> ESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats get>>> a two fer screw job.>> It is literally impossible for the human being to pump the brake as>> rapidly as an ABS and there are only a few off-road cars that offer>> the wheel-selectable braking available on ABS. And there are virtually>> no drivers with the skills to use such a braking system. ABS is one>> of the biggest improvements in vehicle safety I'm aware of.>

You are absolutely correct...

See

Isuspect it will be another goverment> > > inspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous for> > > making exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going back> > > and verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big time> > > after trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiring> > > ESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats get> > > a two fer screw job.>

If all other factors are held constant, how can cars with ABS that is properly used be involved in more accidents than cars without ABS.

See

Isuspect it will be another goverment> > > inspired waste of the publics money. NHTSA and IIHS are infamous for> > > making exaggerated safety claims for changes and then never going back> > > and verifying that the claims were true. They got causht big time> > > after trying to ram ABS down the public's throat. Of course requiring> > > ESC effectively requires ABS as well - so in the end the burecrats get> > > a two fer screw job.>

Be sure to read this quote from the Pop Mechanics article: There is little question that the rise of computerized controls has made cars safer.

All other factors are NOT held constant.

I have cars with ABS, and for winter driving, I consider it a wonderful device. For summer use, not so important. ABS works for me, but apparently not for a lot of people, which is why I'm glad it's not mandatory.

Ray

"New" as in "10 years old", right ? Actually 12 years old:

"was used by Mercedes-Benz in their flagship S-Class and, to a lesser extent, in the 7 Series by BMW in 1995."

The ESP does what it is programmed to do. Some manufacturers tune the system to force the car to understeer no matter what the driver tries to do. Mercedes some years ago was infamous for that. Not sure what they do now.

Other manufacturers tune the system to let the car oversteer a bit and then hold the car at that attitude. I remember a comment by a test driver (from Aston Martin, I think) that an ESP does no good if the first thing the driver does when he enters the car is to turn it off. So their system was in the second case (and the driver demonstrated that to the journalist in a snow road at high speed).

In the cars in which the system can be turned off, sometimes it turns itself on if it thinks the driver is in trouble. For instance, Porsche links the system with the ABS and if the ABS actuates in a front wheel, the ESP is turned on automatically. My Seat's ESP is of the permissive type.

It is possible that in a few years time, when ESP is generalized, manufacturers will tune suspensions to make the car more agile (meaning, oversteering) and use the ESP to keep the driver out of trouble. A bit like fly-by-wire fighter planes which are dynamically unstable and use computers to appear stable to the pilot.

Buy it. (Note: it is possible that some manufacturers have very poor implementations of the system.)

They have several sensors, including steering wheel position, apart from the ABS sensors (the 2 systems are integrated).