Here in Canada our Canadian Tire store (auto parts dept) sells gas-line anti-freeze for CDN$12.99 for 4 litres. It also sells 99.9 % pure Methyl Hydrate as cold stove and fondue fuel (and some other uses that I don't recall) for CDN$7.99 for 4 litres.
I'm not a chemist (nor a chemical engineer or engine specialist), so my question is: can 99.9% Methyl Hydrate can be used as gas line antifreeze?
Also, does anyone know the difference between these two products? (Other than price.)
1) Methyl Hydrate ("Denatured Alcohol" in the US, "Methylated Spirit" in the UK) is relatively aggressive to fuel system materials. It's very good for cleaning gum and sludge from fuel systems, but it's not good to feed your engine a steady diet of it. Isopropyl alcohol is a better choice for fuel line antifreeze.
2) You don't need this stuff. Clear across Canada, gasoline sold in winter already contains plenty of anti-freeze compounds (Notice the blue "WinterGas!" flags on the pumps at Canadian Tire? That means the gas has alcohol in it). Fuel line freezing is not *nearly* the problem it used to be prior to the 1990s, due to changes in fuel formulations and fuel system characteristics. Keep your tank above half full and don't waste your money.
It's coming back to me now! Methylated Spirit is, indeed, ethyl alcohol (ethanol, C2H5OH) plus additives to stop people drinking it! - I recall it being a pale purple. Way back, we used it in the UK to preheat those dreadful "Primus" pressure stoves that burned kerosene (which we incorrectly called "paraffin") - bloody thing was a pain to start, I recall my late Dad cursing it at family picnics!
I agree Methyl hydrate is methyl alcohol (methanol, CH3OH.) But Daniel said it is aggressive to fuel system materials. I think some "ecological" gas contains up to 10% methanol without damage to fuel systems. Does anyone have a validation of this?
IIRC when it was first introduced it was problematic w/ some of the elastomers and fuel tank coatings in some cars' fuel systems, but nowadays the elastomer formulations have been changed/improved to eliminate the problem. Still, isopropyl alcohol based dryers may be preferable to methyl or methyl + ethyl alcohol ones, and they should not be required often in any case.
Honda for example states their fuel system will stand up to 10% ethanol or 5% methanol. Isopropanol is the best however, 5 times more effective than methanol.
Mix up a ten percent methanol/ethanol/isopropanol and gasoline mixture in a clear container.
Introduce some water into that mix...
Then write back here describing exactly how well the water "mixed" with the gasoline.
I believe you will find an easily visible alcohol/water mix sitting on the bottom of your container.
Alcohol simply keeps the water from freezing. It does not cause it to "mix" with gasoline.
I could save you the trouble of telling you that we did this back in the late '70s in gasohol experiments, but so many web surfers these days are either caustic skeptics, or they are from Missouri and need to see it for themselves.
There might actually be some sort of chemical that causes water and gasoline to actually mix, but it ain't alcohol.
Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Race Car Chassis Setup and Dial-in Services
Forget this additive stuff. Go to your local Mohawk or Husky station and fill up. The gasoline has 10% ethanol in it (5% if in B.C.) and this will take care of any problem with gas line freezing.
ACHTUNG!! If you have not kept your tank and line clean the gas-ethanol blend will loosen the crap and deposit it in your fuel filter - with dire consequences as prescribed by Murphy et al. It is worthwhile to replace the fuel filter after a take or 2 of "gasohol blend". Your system will be all the better for it.
Just think how useful this stuff is: here in MB the price of gasohol and ordinary gas is the same. If you put in 50 liters of gasohol you get 5 liters of ethanol. THAT will remove any water and loosen/clean all the crap in your fuel system.
Been there, d> I'm not a chemist (nor a chemical engineer or engine specialist), so
Bob, I'm not from Missouri ... heck, I don't think I've even passed THROUGH the "show me" state ... but I think I'm gonna try that test for myself.
I've had a few personal examples with vehicles that were misbehaing and adding some isopropyl alcohol cleared them up instantly.
One was a 1998 Honda Prelude in the winter with 48,000 miles on the original fuel filter. Car was hesitating badly. A little (6-8 ounces) isopropyl alcohol (and, to be fair, about 6 ounces Red Line SI-1) and the thing cleared up in about 5-6 miles of moderate running. I also recommended the owner change the fuel filter.
Honda Tractor - twin cylinder running in the summer. Engine running poorly at all RPMs and I suspected moisture contamination. 2-3 ounces of isoproypl alcohol (don't remember if I used any Red Line this time) and it cleared right up. Replaced the old fuel filter and it ran even better.
Lastly, 1980 Ford pick-up filled with questionable quality gas in the winter. We were driving into Vermont and it began bucking and we didn't know if we were going to make it to Manchester. We stopped in Bennington and bought 2 bottles of isopropyl drygas, dumped it into the tank, physically shook/rocked the truck and got back in. The vehicle which had been running poorly for the past 30+ miles, cleared up within the next 2.
Oh, and around New York State, the concentrations of isopropyl alcohol found in pharmacy-grade rubbing alcohols are 70% & 91% ... NOT 99%.
Best deal is to go into WalMart and buy the black-bottled Christy's Drygas which is 100% isopropyl. Cost is 4 - 12oz bottles for $3 ... or about $0.75 each. Their blue-bottled product is the cheaper methanol and I wouldn't use it if it were free.
Ah-- not quite my friend, not quite. Alcohols do cause water in gasoline to form a phase solution. It's just that their ability to do so isn't unlimited.
This paragraph is from
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"The situation is different for gasoline oxygenated with 10 vol % ethanol. The gasoline-alcohol blend can dissolve more water (6000-7000 ppm at 70°F). When this blend is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble. Contacting the blend with more water also draws ethanol from the blend. The result, in both cases, is two layers of liquid: an upper ethanol-deficient gasoline layer and a lower ethanol-rich (about 75% ethanol) water layer. The process is called phase separation and it occurs because ethanol is completely soluble in water, but only marginally soluble in hydrocarbons. After phase separation, the gasoline layer will have a lower octane number and may knock in an engine. The engine will not run on the water layer.
"The potential for phase separation requires that gasoline oxygenated with ethanol not be exposed to water during its distribution or use in a vehicle. Because of this requirement, gasoline oxygenated with ethanol is not transported in pipelines, which sometimes contain water. This requirement also means that extra care should be taken when gasoline oxygenated with ethanol is used as a fuel for boat engines."
This brings up an additional factor. The big underground tanks at your local gas station are just as susceptible to accumulating water due to condensation as your car's gas tank is. Some service station operators are more assiduous at purging their tanks than others. The paragraph above hints that at some stations you may not be getting as much alcohol in your gasohol as you have been led to expect.
And if you went on a long trip in hot humid weather, left your gas tank empty overnight and found a lot of dew on your car the next morning, there might be more water in your gas tank than gasohol can handle.
Sounds as though that "phase separation" is exactly what I described would happen when adding water to an alcohol/gasoline blend.....The water and alcohol combine and fall to the bottom of the tank - separate from the gasoline.
The Chevron quote also points out that the water is insoluble in gasoline.
The acceptable 6000-7000 ppm at 70° F amounts to .006 - .007 percent....and
70° F is NOT where trace amounts of water in the fuel causes problems.
In the "real" world of 32° F or less - the conditions under which the name of this thread suggests we are discussing - the water/alcohol DOES precipitate from the gasoline and lie on the bottom of the tank - the "phase separation" that the Chevron quote refers to.
If there's too much water for the alcohol to handle.
Well almost. "Conventional gasoline, depending on its aromatic content, can dissolve up to 150 parts per million (ppm) water at
70°F." I agree that's so very little that you could call it nothing.
.006% in a full gas tank is how much?
If there's too much water. But how much is that? How much water is contained in the air inside a near empy gas tank, even at 100% humidity? As much as a teaspoon?
Also, I'd like to see the phase seperation figures on isopropanol, which is 5 times as effective as methanol.
Minus 36C here in Winterpeg this morning. Minus 50C wind-chill at the airport, but that has no effect on gas line freezing.
This AM my wife's Volvo started fine. Remember, she's the one who habitually runs the gas tank empty (to vapours almost) then fills it. In winter she uses Mohawk because of it's 10% ethanol here. Ran fine too.
Some of the traffic announcers have mentioned the stalled cars within the city blocking traffic this morning rush period. I'll wager a do-nut that many of the stalls were gas line freezing and no ethanol blend!
I have gotten 4 or 5 calls from friends with dead vehicles in this last cold snap and they were all ice in the gas related.
The blend is only a 'fix' if used regularly, condensation can build up bad and it takes some added 'gas line antifreeze' to clear them.
Then there are vehicles like my Jeeps, one that won't run on any kind of alcohol ethanol mix and both stating in the owners manuals 'not' to use it except in an emergency and use only enough to get to real gas.
I got stuck recently where that is all I could buy for the next 3 days so got a tank full and I lost/lose 100 miles per tank when using it. Ya it starts, but it runs like crap, won't idle for shit with no power at all at speed.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
And WHAT empirical evidence you have to suppot your commentary? I suggest that true Canadians realize that Ottawa is NOT the center of Canadian ideas and opinions.
Can you elaborate on the bullshit term? I know from the politicians that you must by buried in that crap. No point in passing it on to the west - not even under the guise of producing bio gas!
Perhaps you are be more interested in betting a smoked meat sandwich, not that any true Canadians would eat that eastern stuff! Corned beef, perhaps, but smoked? As in fish and bacon? The bet is still offered!
Neutral territory perhaps: a cup of coffee. Real coffee not that burnt like "Stargazer" stuff that costs more than a buck an cup! This is Canada after all, not just another wanna-be-like-the-USA nation. Americans want to be more sensible and prefer to use miles and the Fahrenheit scales rather than jumping on what the rest of the world uses ;-)
Yes, it is strange how some vehicles don't like the 10% ethanol blend. Engineering or materials used i suppose. When you get 40 liters of 10% ethanol there are 4 liters of alcohol in that batch - that is 1 Us gallon more-or-less. I don't know of many people who put in that much gas-line deicer!
I won't argue with you about the loss in mpg, but at -40C or even -40F ;-) I would think that one's mpg values are the least you should worry about.
Here in Manitoba school busses are being cancelled so kids cannot get to school. It is THAT cold. While driving this morning taking my son to basket ball practice (no classes there are exams on here) a Greyhound bus passes me like a bat out of hell. Winterized diesel MUST be used by those companies. I'll bet the railways use that winterized stuff too.
Anyone know what the chemical is to stop gelling of diesel etc at these temps. Preheating would be another possibility. Insulated diesel tanks with a built-in heater perhaps?
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