Gas line anti-freeze?

Both induce a 3 phase mixture-- water/alcohol/gasoline. but isopropanol is more effective (5 times, according to the mfr) in that it forms azeotropic mixtures with both water and many of the hydrocarbons in gasoline.

Gasoline is not a simple chemical. It is in fact a complex mixture of related hydrocarbons. heptane, octane, cyclohexane, benzene, toluene, naphthalene... the list goes on and on. Maybe isopropanol gets on better with some of these than methy hydrate does.

Burn.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

ne>

Well, it goes into the engine. The gasoline and alcohol components burn, The water just goes to steam and mixes with the steam resulting from the combustion of the fuel. Then it goes out with the exhaust gasses.

Mike Romain wrote in article ...

Mike:

If you have discovered a way to make water burn, you could very well become one of the most popular people in history at the Department of Energy in Washington, D.C.

Make one phone call and arrange to show them your process that makes water burn, and they will likely see to it that you never have to work another day in your natural life.

Oh, by the way, don't fall victim to the oil companies that would like to buy up your process and put it on the same shelf as several 200 m.p.g. fuel systems they have also bought up just to take off the market......LOL!!!!

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Race Car Chassis Setup & Dial-in Services

I tried Bob's little test. I put about 2-3 ounces of gasoline in a clear glass jar, added 1 teaspoon of water and it immediately sank to the bottom forming a bubble which rolled about ... like mercury would.

I added about a teaspoon of isopropyl drygas (Christy's), it did nothing. I shook it up, the bubble reformed quickly. I added another teaspoon full and shook it. Nothing.

I added another teaspoon of isopropyl ... no difference. I added a teaspoon of Red Line SI-1 which is supposed to have some moisture-remover abilities and it broke the bubble into a hundred or more tiny bubbles. I could have let this sit around for a while to find out what would have happened over time ... but this thing was stinky and I was bored so I poured the gasoline off the top and dumped the rest on a snowbank.

Interesting.

--- Bror Jace

For this test to be meaningful you would need to measure how much water was in the "bubble" before and after adding the drygas. Two or three ounces of gasoline isn't very much relative to the amount of water you added, and would probably be equivalent to several gallons of water in a regular sized gas tank. That's an unrealistic amount since about the only way to get that much water into a tank on a running car would be to drive it into a lake.

JazzMan

Mike Romain wrote in article ...

The alcohol keeps the water from freezing.

The alcohol/water mixture eventually IS carried up to the engine, where it passes through the engine.

The alcohol and gasoline burn and the water turns to steam, then passes out the exhaust. On a cool day, you can actually see the water vapor.

Water DOES NOT BURN!!!!

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Chassis Analysis Services

LOL!

The OP asked what happened to the 'mixture'. Did it stay in the bottom of the tank or did it burn.

I stated it burns. It does.

You 'seem' to agree that it at least doesn't stay in the bottom of the tank....

He didn't ask for a chemistry lesson although a water alcohol mix and fire might be an interesting equation. ;-) Just kidding....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Neon asked:

so does the water/alcohol/gas mixture burn or sink to the bottom?

He did NOT ask if each component burns. No one is suggesting (at least IMHO) that water is burning. It just goes through the engine - in the same way that N2 goes in and out of your lungs. Both are a part of the respective processes - but you know that, don't you?

Point is the mixture gets rid of the water and gets rid of the gas-line freezing problems.

Ken

Bob Paul> Mike:

Spray elemental fluorine on it.

They told me they already knew about it.

The moisture vapor that you see is actually water that's a byproduct of the combustion process, probably something like HxCx+O2 = COx and H2O. And, water will indeed burn under the right conditions, albeit not directly. This was demonstrated quite effectively at Chernobyl where the water got so hot in the core that it disassociated into H and O, which promptly ignited creating an explosion large enough to pop off the reactor vessel lid, a steel plate some 30 feet in diameter and weighing several dozen tons.

JazzMan

Jazzman, I didn't think my 4 1/2 minute experiment with a couple ounces of gasoline would be definitive in any way ...

... But I expected I'd see SOMETHING. Besides, I used a small amount of gasoline and a large amount of water ... but also a very large amount of alcohol (proportionately).

I suppose the bubble might have shrunken 10-15% without me noticing ... and if less than an ounce of isopropyl alcohol gets rid of 20% its volume of water/moisture, then adding a 12oz bottle to a 12 gallon tank might work on the occasional ounce or so of accumulated water.

I'm going to occasionally continue to use isopropyl ... but in conjunction with other products such as Red Line SI-1 and another ester-based cleaner called Schaeffer 131 Neutra:

Althought the Neutra is designed to get water to "settle out" of the fuel. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much poke-n-hope, but between all these products (used at a rate of 6-8 bottles per year total) my fuel system should remain dry ... and clean. >:^)

--- Bror Jace

JazzMan wrote in article ...

First of all, I cannot imagine any sort of internal combustion engine creating nuclear types of temperatures which would separate hydrogen and oxygen.

Secondly, isn't what you described actually hydrogen and oxygen burning after separation into separate gases....not water?

Once it is converted into hydrogen and oxygen molecules, it can no longer be called water, can it?

YES! Hydrogen DOES burn....

YES! Oxygen accelerates and supports combustion....

When hydrogen and oxygen are combined in correct proportions, you get water.

Water DOES NOT burn.

AND, actually the water vapor coming out of the tailpipe is not a byproduct of combustion in the sense that nox is.

It is merely the moisture content of the air which was ingested to mix with the liquid fuel passing through the process. No conversion has taken place due to combustion.

This moisture content - being water - DID NOT BURN, and is expelled with the exhaust gases.

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Chassis Analysis Services

Bror Jace wrote in article ...

It's YOUR money.....

Did you miss the part pointing out that most winter blends of gasoline contain up to 10 percent alcohol????

Adding another few ounces of isopropyl isn't going to have any measurable effect on a 20-gallon tank that already contains up to two gallons of alcohol already blended into the gasoline.

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Chassis Analysis Services

So, is the ethanol that's typically blended with gasoline as hygroscopic as the isopropyl alcohol that he's adding to his tank?

JazzMan

I never said that a car would create these conditions, and I thought I was being clear when I said "not directly" when referring to the process involved. Hmmm...

Bob, I have a lot of respect for you, you seem like a pretty sharp guy, but the chemistry of hydrocarbon combustion is pretty plain to see. Gasoline is a mix of different fractions of hydrocarbons, or HC, which is why emissions tests refer to it as HC BTW. The links between the hydrogens and carbons is where the energy is stored. Adding oxygen and heat to start combustion causes the oxygen to bond with both the hydrogens and the carbons, breaking their links and releasing the energy as heat. The hydrogens combined with the oxygens become H2O, or water, and the carbons combined with the oxygens become CO and CO2, and the heat of the process also causes the nitrogens in the air mixture to combine with the oxygens in various combinations such as NO, NO2, NO3, etc, hence the nomenclature NOx.

I would really advise you to bone up on your basic chemistry, but not organic chemistry unless you're really in to self mutilation. :)

JazzMan