That makes sense.
But I should say the delta between an E and an F and a G is huuuuuuuuuuge (in terms of friction coefficients)!
So, for me to tell someone to get ANYTHING that meets the original friction code, seems reasonable.
It's certainly less confusing than all the FUD marketing and "common wisdom" that abounds with brake pads.
Just to be clear, in my original suggested description, the key rating was the friction rating of the rubber which is marked on every tire.
On THAT rating, I would NOT compromise.
All the rest are, as you said, less important.
So, to SIMPLIFY buying tires, where FUD and Marketing abound, I suggested she buy the CHEAPEST set she can find with the highest FRICTION (i.e., TRACTION) rating (i.e., AA or at least A, and never ever B or C).
no kidding.
one thing that gets me every time are these bmw's wieners who bleat about brake dust. "common wisdom" is that you have to use "bmw spec" pads and the dust is just the price you have to pay. that's ignorant bullshit. fact is, low dust ceramics like the japanese use on their cars, work just fine. not only does the car continue to perform just great, there's no need to have to clean their wheels all the time, /and/ no need to replace disks every pad change.
bmw make money from selling braking components. get wise to that. friends who have both bmw's and [bmw] mini's have changed over to akebonos at my suggestion, don't have any more dust problems, are not munching through disks, and couldn't be happier.
I'm honestly not sure - I *do* know that they are somehow associated with Stoptech which is a well regarded manufacturer of "performance" aftermarket brakes, big brake kits, etc.
I can tell you that the finish and machining on the Centric Premium rotors that I have used is superior to a lot of OEM stuff I've seen. Haven't heard any reports of warping, cracking, etc. either. Obviously can't comment on metallurgy, but they're nice looking, balanced, and aren't showing any signs of unusual wear, hot spots, etc. after over a year on the Heep.
Based on my experiences and those I've heard from others I'd consider them again for my next brake job, although I tend not to wear brakes that quickly as I don't drive like a racer on the street (but the Heep is an automatic, so does use brakes a little faster than most of my vehicles.)
nate
Just to add confusion to the discussion, the UTQG rating is *wet* traction and may or may not indicate how well a tire performs in the dry.
nate
Wow, some actual good advice from JB.
From everything I've heard he's spot on, with the only caveat being that the Akebonos might not have quite as nice pedal feel as the stock Jurid/Textar pads. I'm definitely considering them should my car need brakes however. Probably not appropriate for someone who tracks their car but might be the sweet spot for street driving.
nate
I agree. I do get "A" traction. Houston tends to be wet from Nov-March and the shell and limestone roads get slick. The 'A' rating is one reason my tires wear out at about
35k miles.
The honest truth is that the worst tires you can buy today are substantially better than the best tires you could buy in the seventies.
Mind you, I don't consider that a reason to buy lousy tires for my 1970s car, when I can get better tires that make it handle better than it ever did when it was new.
--scott
These days I go to Costco or Sam's Club. The last I got tires it was Dunlops at Sam's Club. It was the cheapest P255 /50SR17 tires they had. It was around $650 for a set. Boy, they sure added a lot of weights on the wheels to get those tires balanced. Maybe I should have upgraded the tires one step.
maybe 10 years ago, but cheap chinese tires that have flooded the market today are utter carp and well worse than 70's tires.
The sad thing is that rotors don't warp in common use.
Rotor warp is, in essence, an old wives' tale.
It turns out that what people 'call' warp, is really just pad deposition (and sometimes it's other things such as runout & sloppy linkages, and a host of other imbalances having nothing to do with the rotors, per se).
The problem is that the SOLUTION to so-called rotor warp (i.e., rebed or turn or replace the rotors) "appears" to fit the errant problem that they're somehow warped - but (almost) NOBODY who ever said they had warped brakes ever measured the warpage (because it just doesn't happen).
To be thoroughly clear, brake rotors CAN warp. I'm not saying they can't, especially in racing situations, but in reality, 99.9999999999999% of the time someone 'says' their rotors are warped, they didn't.
They merely have a very thin uneven layer of pad deposition on them.
Before anyone lambastes me, please just google some of the references, e.g.,
Agreed.
It's my understanding that what we're calling "low dust" (e.g., Akebono or PBR/Axxis pads) are really "light colored dust". The don't dust any less or any more than the Jurid/Textar BMW OEM pads - they just dust a less objectionable color (as I understand it).
The Jurid/Textar front pads (depending on the bimmer) are dark colored dust.
I may be wrong, but ALL pads dust. They kind of have to. So, the only real issue is to find less objectionable colors to the dust. That's what the aftermarket pads did - but BMW doesn't care about dusting so that's not part of their OEM spec.
In the end, the friction rating of FF (for the Jurid/Textar pads) is all that you really want to meet - and if you can get that with a lighter- colored dust, then that's what you do.
I agree with you.
You do know that there is a heavy spot marked on most tires, and that the amount of weight used is greater when the installer does not mount the tire with the heavy spot near the light spot of the rim.
Most times they don't (they think you don't know about it).
That's sort of true, and sort of not true.
I see a warped rotors. But they didn't warp in use, they warped because some idiot at the tire store warped them trying to put lug nuts on.
--scott
that's absolutely correct.
true. but turning disks is often unnecessary - it "fixes" the problem just because the disk gets rebedded - and people don't analyze the cause and effect coincidence of what they've done that somehow magically "worked".
indeed.
that can happen, but it's not as common as rotor elastic distortion because the disk's not seated properly and not torqued properly. always scrape off rust and [very lightly] antiseize the hub before replacing a disk.
incorrect. japanese ceramics cause less dust /and/ that dust is different. "bmw spec" pads actively and aggressively abrade the disk metal because of high silica content. that results in a high disk wear rate, which is more dust than just the pad. and that dust quickly oxidizes, which is the visible bit you're talking about.
it's powdered disk, not pad that's showing on your wheels.
no, it's their intent that you replace disks with the pad at every change.
why? if you can get the friction spec you want from a japanese ceramic, which in my experience are not just good at low dust and disk preservation, why wouldn't you? especially when they're highly fade resistant too - more so than most typical euro oem pads i've tried.
so what do you do when you buy tires that aren't marked??? michelin don't mark tires and they make some of the best tires you can buy. and they have more money/time/phd's in tire research than anybody - by some margin. so what now?
Interesting thought. I never would have thought the dust is actually the steel of the rotor. I must look that one up.
It does make intuitive sense though, that the steel rotor dust would be a dark color that sticks to the wheels ... so you may be right (I don't know - but I'll look it up).
Not really. That's a common Bimmerism (just like many others such as you have to use LL01 synthetic oil or "blue" coolant).
BMW publishes a rotor spec in the TIS, just like every other automobile manufacturer. If the rotors meet spec, you leave 'em on the car - if not, you replace 'em. Just like all other cars.
On my bimmer, I get two pad changes per front rotor, and that second pad goes on a front rotor that 'barely' meets the spec in the TIS, so I can't imagine getting three pad changes.
This document explains how to handle a red dot and a yellow dot:
I don't know WHAT they do if there's no dot.
well, i've never seen a bmw disk that meets spec thickness by the time the pad's done - they've always been below or significantly below minimum.
you must be changing the pad at 50%.
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