On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:52:07 -0800 (PST),
I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific
summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in
passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of
torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate.
Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.
I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than
two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go
through one set of rear shoes.
The problem isn't the scrapyard per se.
The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard.
That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).
What does that even mean?
I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a
used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads
I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four
and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender
or mirror that you want.
To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you
can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and
year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the
rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to
see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.
Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake
shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape,
but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison
pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're
borrowing someone else's car.
If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right
shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or
shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.
Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly?
If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
what I was aiming for here.
It's not so much an obsession with any one spec but the desire to be able
to intelligently compare two brake shoes that are in one's hand or on the
It should be clear by now that I don't trust salesmen or marketing, so I'm
pretty much stuck to trusting whatever specs we have.
And we *know* that the AMECA Edge Code is one spec that must, by law, be
printed on every shoe.
I agree that there are other important criteria of a second-order nature
other than how well a shoe stops.
But just stating them doesn't help.
We have to be able to tell how much shoe A dusts compared to shoe B when we
go to the parts store or on the web to buy them.
How do YOU tell if shoe A dusts more or less than shoe B for example?
It doesn't even seem to do that, since as Clare noted, EE and FF brakes had
pedal forces to maintain a given deceleration that were 100% different and
it didn't matter whether they were EE or FF. It was dependent on the pad.
So, we're really stuck with nothing.
As you noted, *lots* of things are important, but that's meaningless if we
can't tell, with the shoes in our hand or on the web, which ones are better
than the others.
You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.
The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
rectify this *knowledge deficit*.
And that doesn't even work when you get into sloppy wet slush - The
brakes basically shut off, and if you could steer around the trouble
you wouldn't need to even try the brakes.
When driving in those conditions you drive as if you have no brakes -
because when it comes right down to it, you will be right.
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:
Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bullshit (he used nicer terms than that).
Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?
Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online! :)
Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.
Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?
The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.
He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.
That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.
It's just not.
And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.
SO I'm fucked.
Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular
You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bullshit.
Marketing spin is bullshit.
The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.
This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.
I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.
That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.
In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.
But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.
His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.
He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.
I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.
And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.
That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.
So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're
I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.
The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.
The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.
Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.
You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.
My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.
Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......
That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.
On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA,
Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone,
JC Whitney or Pep Boys.
The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable
mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right.
All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I
read on Facebook (or WebMD)."
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:28:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
from the PBR brake site :
PBR Axxis Metal Master Brake Pads, Ultimate Brake Pads, and Deluxe
Note: The FMP Group Australia Pty. Ltd., is the manufacturer of Axxis
and PBR brand brake pads; these pads are identical.
Axxis Ultimate Brake Pads
The PBR Axxis Ultimate brake pads feature a special Kevlar® and
ceramic-strengthened formula with a high co-efficient of friction and
excellent high temperature wear and fade resistance. Designed for
ultra-high performance driving and hard-braking applications, PBR
Axxis Ultimate pad users will benefit with extreme stopping power and
high resistance to brake fade at high temperatures, meaning the
decrease in friction over repeated heavy duty stops, as the
temperature increases, is minimal. PBR Axxis Ultimate pads boast a
maximum continuous working temperature of 550° C (1022° F degrees).
Consistent throughout its operating temperature range, youll get
dependable, predictable stops time after time while maintaining a
solid pedal feel.
Axxis Metal Master
Metal Master: Non-asbestos, semi-metallic compound provides the
highest fade resistance among leading semi-met brake pads. They
deliver proven longer pad and rotor life, with low rotor scoring and
Designed for applications requiring the highest performance
Premium quality, non-asbestos, semi-metallic formula
Unique formula offers reduced brake dust, fade and squeal
Provides the ultimate stopping power under all conditions
Virtually eliminates squeal and dust
Improved cold effectiveness
Improved pad life
Exclusive OE equivalent organic compound provides outstanding stopping
power with very low fade. Extremely quiet with proven long pad and
rotor life and low rotor scoring. Provides measurably longer life and
has extreme resistance to heat while delivering consistent, smooth
Formulated from the latest premium quality, organic materials
Low dust, low squeal
Delivers quality braking performance
Smooth stopping power
Low dust and squeal
Extended pad life
Get yourself a set of PBR Axxis Ultimate, Metal Master, or Deluxe pads
today! Brake pads! High Performance Brake Pads! Theres nothing
better for braking performance than a good brake pad.
So PBR makes 3 differentlines of brakes. One is sold as AXXIS
Ultimate, oneas Axxis Metal Master, and one as Axxis Deluxe. (Also
sold underthe PBR brand)
3 totally different pads for diufferent use - all spelled out on the
PBR brake products web site. If you spoke to a PBR marketing person
you spoke to an idiot who doesn't know their product line, and knows
even less about brakes. What you got from HIM WAS marketing bullshit.
Whoever you called gave you VERY bad information.
And you are still stupid enough to think you have to buy online -- I
just cannot figure you idiots out.
But metallics are not NECESSARILLY magnetic - because they can be
copper or brass - and even ceramics can have some metal in them - as
can some organics. You just DON"T GET IT.
Get used to it.
Which is pure bull;shit when talking about tiuer one aftermarket
suppliers (which are also OEM suppliers in most cases)
I do NOT buy on a "number line" - I buy by spec. I buy organic, semi
metallic, or ceramic depending on what brake characteristics I need
and what I'm willing to pay.
You've done it to yourself.
You keep going between pads and shoes. There is so much difference -
hardly oranges to oranges - barely apples to oranges - more like
rutabagas to apples.
ANd I don't look at "marketing spin" I look at "real" specifications.
What KIND of brake material is it? Knowing the KIND of material I can
pretty accurately deduce the basic qualities of the brake product -
and knowing the manufacturer AND the composition, I can make a pretty
good deduction as to quality and suitability for my purpose. Without
any "number line" or "friction rating"
And where do you get the idea I trust "marketing"?????
No, for the Toyota you buy Akebono brake shoes - the aftermarket
supplier that also produces the OEM brakes for a large percentage of
Toyota vehicles (Toyota generally "dual sources" all major parts that
the source from outside, like brakes, shoicks, lenses, bulbs, and
spark plugs. If one supplier has a problem they cut them off until the
problem is solved. (for spark plugs it was always either Nipon Denso
or NGK,, foir many parts like AC it was Aisin or Denso.
The MAJOR Tier one aftermarket suppliers are also major OEM
TRW, Walker,Monroe, Delphi, and a host of other manufacturers design
and build all kinds of parts for the OEM market - as well as the
That will be ONE of their brake suppliers.
Then what are yopu fussing about????????
Not if their "intuition" is "educated"
ANd you know NOTHING about octane and detonation - I'd be willing to
bet significantly on that one. (Few people do - the myths on that
subject are - well - "mythical".
Don't get started on that one unless you want to get TOTALLY
Why use Ocam's razor - don't you have your own????
Seriously - you are making more assumtions than I am - therefore the
chances of your conclusions being correct are significantly less than
Not quite sure you fully understand "Ockham's Razor" either (also
known as Occams razor - not Ocams) - a theory first postulated by a
14th century mathemetician and Franciscan Friar by the name of William
of Ockham as part of his "unified field theory"
His principal is simply "Entities should not be multiplied
It has been expanded on by many others includingsuch natables as
Like any sharp instrument -Ockhams razor should not be weilded
blindly - - - -
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:43:16 -0800 (PST),
I removed s.e.r so I didn't see this post until moving over to a.h.r, so I
apologize for not having prior responded.
I agree with you on pedal force, where we must note that the range was from
about 8 foot pounds to about 30 foot pounds, from a slow deceleration to a
panic stop, which I presume we're all able to supply.
I'm not defending the police report but they did mention that women are in
the force now, and they mentioned that they cruise all day, but still, I'm
with you on the pedal force.
To their credit, the pedal force *does* equate to stopping distance, where
only the 30 foot pound panic stop test actually stops in the *shortest*
Fundamentally, what they found was that the pedal force between any two
pads (all were either EE or FF) varied by about 10 foot pounds (give or
take) to keep to a given deceleration, which, I'm guessing, isn't all that
much of a difference that is meaningful to us.
Still ... it's the best test we could find, so if you can find a better
test, we'd be all ears.
As for your last comment that 'friction is a red herring', I can't
logically disagree (given the facts we've unearthed), but intuitively I
would have *assumed* that friction was of primary importance in brake
Given that intuition fails in this case, it's one reason why I say that
most people who *only* rely on intuition are more often wrong than right,
because in this situation, clearly, friction isn't of primary importance in
brake friction material performance.
Certainly not I.
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 17:58:04 -0800 (PST),
That's why I say those who say "you get what you pay for" are misguided
because a $157 pad "might" be just as good or bad as a $20 pad, where I can
prove this statement for the $300 20W Panasonic speakers in a Toyota since
I know the specs on the $50 speakers at Crutchfields.
Even at Crutchfields, you can get a good $50 speaker or a less-good $50
speaker, and the price is exactly the same.
So if someone tells me "you get what you pay for", they'll get the same
rant from me that everyone loves to pick products off a number line, but
the real number line is a bunch of specs, and not a simple price.
That's retail for you! :)
I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars. I wouldn't buy brakes off a dead car for a
billion reasons which are obvious so I shouldn't need to state it.
What's the difference between my concept of a junkyard (which contains
entire cars that were thrown away) and your scrapyard?
Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?
There is no other logical conclusion to be made, given the information we
have. Price is NOT the determinant of a good or bad brake pad.
The sad thing is that there is no determinant we can make that will hold
true other than there is no difference practically that you can do anything
I'm NOT saying they are all the same. I'm saying we consumers can't tell by
having two of them in our hand or having two of them sold online.
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:19:40 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
You still have not learned ANYTHING?????
The specs on speakers are known to be some of the best fiction ever
written, followed only by the specs on consumer stereo equipment.
You "only" get what you pay for - and then only if you are both lucky
and astute. You SELDOM get more than what you pay for
You can take THAT to the bank.
Because someone was unloading something they didn't need, at a price
to get it off their shelves - and your requirements were not severe
enough to require anything better.
I've also been "lucky" enough to pick up some real "bargoons" by
being at the right place at the right time. I often buy what no-one
wants any more - nobody inOntario wanted a 1972 Pontiac Firenza in
1974 or 1975 - so I gor an almost pristine Vauxhaul Viva HC Magnum
coupe for $75 - and it served me well for a number of years before I
sold it to a friend of my wife, who needed a car and had no money for
something "good" - and she drove it another 7 years untill it required
a part that was not readily available or available at a decent cost .
I got "more than my money's worth" - I got "more than I paid for".
The same with my current pickup truck which I bought for $1500 because
nobody wanted a meticulously maintained 16 year old ford Ranger with
over 300,000km on it. It's been virtually trouble free for 6 years -
I've spent about $1500 on repairs over more than 50,000km, and all
indications areI'll get a few more years out of it. I got more than
my money's worth.
In both cases It was because I new the "value" of what I was buying
better than both the seller and other potential buyers.
You are FAR more likely to get less than you paid for - particularly
when buying any commodity new at retail - where you are SIGNIFICANTLY
less likely to get more than you pay for.
Price is not an accurate predictor of quality, but with a few other
often obvious clues, it is a pretty reliable indicator.
It is, as I have stated, an indicator, but not a predictor or
guarantee of quality.
No they are not - and in MANY places it is illegal to sell used brake
parts and used exhaust/emission parts.
Sometimes a car ends up in a scrapyard with lots of brand new parts
on it. The owner puts $3000 into making it safe to drive - new brakes,
suspension,and tires - the either has it hit, or blows a motor or
transmission, and decides not to keep it and repair it - or they spend
all kinds of money fixing it up - making it into their ":boy racer's
wet dream" and then cannot get it to pass smog - and it ends up in the
scrapyard with LOTS of good and/or expensive parts on it.
That said - as a matter of principal - unless no other adequate
source of brake parts was available, I'd be looking elsewhere - first.
Have I used "used" brake parts in the past??
Yes. I put a complete used rear axle from a '63 Belvedere into my '53
Coronet - brakes and all - as an upgrade when the originals failed and
OEM parts were not readilly available, and the old design was less
ANd I put used parts on my '49 VW in Livingstone Zambia. Where was I
going to get new parts??????? On a Sunday afternoon half way between
Choima and Macha - (look it up on Google Earth - and keep in mind
this was 44 years ago - - - - .
Perhaps not of a good one, but quite often of an inferior one
again, bushels of bovine excrement.
And why do you, like so many "millenials" (I'm aking an assumption
here from significant evidence) INSIST on buying everything
Obviously not sufficientfor a 3 ton vehicle going 100MPH - and
definitely not as good after a long downhill stop - -- but likely, at
low speeds - al ot better than you suspect!!!
There is SIGNIFICANT difference between different compounds of
"rubber" pads for rim brakes - includingin their stopping power and
their destructive effect on rims - some better for chromed rims, and
others for Alloy rims - some working better for side-pull, and others
for center pull (different amounts of pressure available)
On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 10:34:19 AM UTC-10, Clare Snyder wrote:
I just picked up a VW door latch assembly on eBay. It's a large electromech
anical component that fails frequently. The new part was probably made in C
hina but I suppose it could be made in some European shithole country. It l
ooks solid enough and I can't imagine that it could possibly be more unreli
able than a genuine VW part - whatever the heck that means. It cost me $23,
including shipping. I just saved $130.
More of "all you ever wanted to know about friction materials" but
were afraid to ask - - -
a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!!
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