While some production DOES loose energy overall, there ARE ways of creating ethanol that do give a net gain in energy. If we are going to subsidize alternate fuels, the laws should be specific that only those processes that DO create net energy get the subsidies.
That's why I wrote *most*. Sugar cane being the energy gainer because the rest of the plant provides the energy for the process.
I don't have a problem with the battery version, it could work in a free market. However I think all the subsidies should go away. That includes all the oil subsidies including the military and foreign policy benefits. With a real free market alternatives would have their best chance at success IMO.
You have called wiwater4gas a liar about the Presidents Bill.
Here is what I found out: (It is not the entire bill but what pertains to what water4gas was talking about)
Wednesday, December 19, 2007 President Bush Signs Energy Bill into Law President Signs Energy Policy Act
?The bill I sign today also includes strong support for hydrogen fuel technology. When hydrogen is used in a fuel cell, it can power consumer products from computers to cell phones to cars that emit pure water instead of exhaust fumes. I laid out a hydrogen fuel initiative, and I want to thank the members of Congress for adding to the momentum of this initiative through this energy bill.?
President's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative The Hydrogen Fuel Initiative aims to reverse America's growing dependence on foreign oil by developing the technology needed for commercially viable hydrogen-powered fuel cells.
"A simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car.?
The quotations are exactly what Bush Said.
Before you call someone a liar you better get ready for a fight. You could very easily be sued for your slander... Doesn't happen? Sure the hell does and people are winning big rewards. But if you don't have a pot to piss in, which is more than likely in your case, whats the use.
You can also get tax credits just for having this unit installed on your car!!
So whos the liar LIAR? Water4gas is telling the truth... You can believe the person who has FACTS or someone (or a few) who talk garbage. He asked for web pages, did you provide any? NO because there isn't any that back you up....
He offers a 100% Money Back Guarantee. Prove him wrong by getting one and test it. You have nothing to lose. But it is easier to bad mouth people when you do not know what you are talking about. Back up your claims like he asks or go away.
Gee, I think my degree in mechanical engineering trumps your web site.
It's up to you to prove your extraordinary claims. It's up to us to laugh at you and call you a dipshit scammer.
no, there never was.
I don't think so. But if they did, they had to produce the hydrogen somehow; you can't just drill it out of the ground.
nate
Bush is an idiot too. Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it's an energy storage medium.
nate
FUEL CELL
IN A FUEL CELL
NOPE. Only if you have a FUEL CELL.
He is still a LIAR. The piece of junk he promotes is NOT a fuel cell. It is a simple electrolytic cracking device that takes over 20 amps to break water into hydrogen and oxygen.
Fuel cells COMBINE oxygen and hydrogen in a chemical reaction to generate electrical power.
Sure there wasn't one of those super milage contests where a carb tweak pushed 99.999mpg to 100.1 mpg ;) It seems all the kooks along with the mainstream media confuse those vehicles with everyday cars all the time ;)
That's how He was gathered once upon a time. Maybe he got confused ;)
Not me. I just said the president was an idiot.
Somehow, popping up here under different names in an attempt to defend yourself does not seem like a good idea. This is normally called the "sock puppet" strategy on Usenet and is generally regarded with derision.
--scott
My Moto-Guzzi had a carb that got over 100 MPG. Of course, it had trouble getting up hills....
--scott
What both the Bush text you refer to and BMW is doing is to use
*stored* hydrogen gas, not water.Water is what you get as a byproduct when you suck out the latent energy of the hydrogen when you feed it and oxygen through a fuel cell.
To reverse the process, which is what this thread is all about, you have to put at least as much energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and that energy has to come from somewhere. As it appears that it uses the car electrical system, which happens to be powered from the engine, you will consume more energy for the process than what you will ever get out of it.
Mythbusters did a program about fuel savers, including an electrolysis contraption, and it didn't work, of course.
Johnny Hageyama wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@z38g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
I agree, supply me with a unit and I can guarantee a doubble blind test on at least 10 different units. No money from your pocket for the tests. (I don`t think I will hold my breath) KB
aarcuda69062 wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.chi.sbcglobal.net:
water4gas seems to have vamoosed...
He registered the wiwater4gas.com domain name last Thursday (yes, less than a week ago). I wonder if he'll be posting to other groups under a different nym?
You spamming twit. Get a few things straight.
Whereas you have removed all shadows of a doubt that you're a lying, spamming idiot.
You're hardly even an /example/ of human life.
Bahahah! If you ever got your hands on ten grand, it would go up your nose within a week, and the change would be blown on gambling and hookers.
Are you willing to deposit ten grand into escrow with a reputable law firm, whose lieutenants will consider such a proof and either award the prize or return it to you?
After you have done that, then wave around your $10K offer.
Give the contact info for this independent, reputable law firm that is holding your $10K, and you will have your proof.
How about this simple verification. Can you post the URL of an unretouched digital photo of a person (understood to be yourself, or an agent representing you) such that: the person in the image is holding ten grand in his left hand, say a fan of 100 x $100 bills, and in his right hand, a piece of paper with `` snipped-for-privacy@wiwater4gas.com'' clearly written on it.
I cannot imagine what stands in your way of being able to do this, if you are honest.
This would constitute modest evidence that you actually have ten grand in cash.
You must have it if you're offering it.
Don't you think it would be much more right to give this to your mom and dad?
You already owe them more than that in unpaid basement suite rent.
- Because anyone who gives you so much as a copper penny will most likely never see it again, no matter what?
- Because even if you're honest in returning money, you're banking on the fact that anyone stupid enough to order a unit will probably be stupid enough to believe that it's doing something (and will convince himself of that in order to feel emotionally comfortable about his purchase?)
- Because even if 95 out of 100 units shipped come back, you're still making money?
It's just some silly jar with electrodes, wires and a hose that cost $5 to put together. The revenue from a unit is like 20X the cost.
- Because money back guarantees are nothing special, and consumer protection laws even require them?
You can get money back for almost anything, if it's returned within a certain statutory period.
No, you have it all wrong! This doesn't require engine modifications! Didn't you read their website? LOL. You put a glass jar with a lid and electrodes under your hood, and a hose that goes nowhere in particular (maybe somewhere in the vicinity of the air intake). Since you're stupid (proof: you paid for this), you convince yourself that your MPG has improved from all the hydrogen coming down this hose. Or, padon me, not hydrogen, HHO.
Result: happy customer.
By the way, this is interesting and relevant:
``The HHO trademark is associated with an unproven state of matter called magnegases,[18] and an unproven theory about magnecules, which supposedly shows that HHO is a "new gaseous and combustible form of water"''
Haha.
With Photoshop, or similar, he could put up an image of himself holding ten grand in one hand and whatever paper in the other hand.
During World War Two, people were getting news via newspapers and radios.I dont think the web existed wayyyyy back then. cuhulin
Woooosh!
Not only did the web not exist, no computers worthy of the name existed either.
Computers existed. They were human beings, mostly women. They sat in groups and ran desk calculators. Sort of like a typing pool. On big jobs a supervisor would break the job down into smaller sets of calculations and had the seperate jobs around. Lens design, ballistics, wind tunnel data reduction, and lots of other computationally intensive jobs called for these groups. Oh, forgot code breaking. A lot of computers were employed by governments decoding axis messages.
Computers existed, more or less. But nothing of any real power, so far as I know.
The transistor had not even yet been invented, and "peanut" tubes were some of the hottest new technology. Mechanical "computers", like Enigma, of course were there, and good mechanical adding machines.
The first "electronic digital computers" I remember being touted were in the mid 40's or early 50's which used racks of relays and vacuum tubes, toroids, etc. Eniac was the name if I remember correctly. It was a cumbersome, failure prone, machine, but paved the way to the future.
Analog computers were relatively simpler, I believe, and had some unique applications. Never used one in my branch of technology, although some were available on a rental, batch, or timeshare basis.
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