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Re: mobile 1

[Please pardon a possible duplication of this message.]

Mark A., again, your thinking is very old-fashioned when it comes to comparing 0w-30 to 5w-30. As I said, you should consider doing some current reading about the 2 viscocities.

Dr. A. E. Haas, a Florida physician and surgeon who has researched fluid dynamics for decades, has written the following:

"I know a person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong. The greatest confusion is because of the way motor oils are labeled. It is an old system and is confusing to many people."

Mark A., Doctor Haas, who has studied viscocity and fluid dynamics for decades, continues:

"It is time to dispel the notion that 0W-30 oil is too thin when our manual calls for 10W-30. A 0W-30 is always the better choice, always. The 0W-30 is not thinner. It is the same thickness as the 10W-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is when you turn your engine off for the night. Both oils thicken over the evening and night. They both had a thickness, a viscosity of [about] 10 when you got home and turned your engine off. That was the perfect thickness for engine operation."

"As cooling occurs and you wake up ready to go back to work the next day the oils have gotten too thick for your engine to lubricate properly. It is 75 F outside this morning. One oil thickened to a viscosity of say 90. The other thickened to a viscosity of 40. Both are too thick in the morning at startup. But 40 is better than 90. Your engine wants the oil to have a thickness of 10 to work properly. You are better off starting with the viscosity of 40 than the honey-like oil with a viscosity of 90."

"I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. This is the end of lesson number one."

I refer folks to some of Dr. Haas' writings at this web page:

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Reply to
Built_Well
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Not only do you have Mobil-1 spelled wrong, you have the entire concept of multi-viscosity oils backwards.

When you shut your hot engine off at night, a 10w-30 oil has the viscosity of a 30 weight, while in the morning, when it is cooler, it has the viscosity of a 10 weight.

Your "expert" had better stick to passing out pills and doing digital rectal exams.

He, apparently, needs a few more decades to get the multi-viscosity concept correct.

Reply to
*

========

  • , I don't have "Mobile 1" spelled wrong. The original poster, Tony Pacc, has "Mobil 1" spelled wrong. I kept the spelling unchanged in the thread's title because I thought it was cute.

Tony, there's no "e" at the end of Mobil :-)

  • (or Asterisk-man), you know a lot about cars, but it's clear that Doctor Haas knows a lot about motor oils and viscosities. Viscosities are his specialty, an area he has focused on for decades.

I'm confident Dr. Haas's knowledge of motor oils far surpasses your own.

Reply to
Built_Well

========

Asterisk-man, like Tony Pacc, you also have "Mobil-1" spelled wrong. There is no hyphen/dash between Mobil and 1 [chuckle].

Feel free to verify this by looking at any bottle of Mobil 1 motor oil or visiting the web site mobil1.com :-)

Reply to
Built_Well

Being knowledgeable about viscosity is general is not the same as being knowledgeable about automotive engineering, and gasoline combustion engines in particular. Not to mention specific knowledge of the Toyota engines in question.

Reply to
Mark A

Can you please reference the post where this expert got the info on the multivicosity oils wrong?

In addition, can you please point to where the expert misspelled "Mobil

1"? For example, did the expert name the thread "Mobile 1?"

It seems to me that you are blaming things on the expert that are not part of this thread and for which the expert is not responsible.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Bullshit snipped!

The Dr. Dichead you quoted knows even less about oil than you do. You are just a spamsoil troll, an idiot or both.

Reply to
Mike

No, he just left a few words out.

At operating temperature, a xW30 oil has the viscosity of a 30 weight oil at operating temperature.

At room temperature, a 10W30 oil may very well have the viscosity of a

90 weight oil *at operating temperature.* The 0W30 oil may very well have the viscosity of a 40 weight oil *at operating temperature.* He's absolutely right, the nomenclature is confusing. The "10W" means that the oil at cold temps has the same viscosity as a straight 10 weight dino oil at the same cold temp. It does NOT mean that a 0W30 oil is thinner cold than hot.

nate

Reply to
N8N

It amazes me that people have a hard time understanding this, and do crazy things like thinking that multi-vis oils "change" thickness with temperature. That's the whole idea- they DON'T change thickness with temperature! When you have a hypothetical oil that flows as easily as a COLD 10 weight oil when it is cold, but remains as thick as a HOT 50 weight oil when it is hot, you call it a 10w50 oil. And yes, I know that's not a common multi-vis rating (20w50 or 10w30, or even 0w30 being more typical). I chose it deliberately to illustrate the point.

And another thing that burns me- the oil doesn't give a rat's ass if its in a Toyota, Ford, or Citroen engine. There's nothing special about what engine it goes in, OTHER than the fact that you should use the viscosity recommended for that engine. The oil will behave the same regardless.

Reply to
Steve

Don't these oils usually have some sort of additives (such as polymers) that cause it to thicken to the intended weight (e.g., 30 weight) at operating temperature? So based on that, 10W30 oil would be a 10 weight oil with additives, such that when the engine is at operating temperature, the additives thicken it to a 30 weight oil. Then, when the engine (and the additives) have cooled down, the oil is once again a 10 weight oil.

By extension, an oil that has additive breakdown would remain its base weight (i.e., a 10W30 oil would remain mostly a 10 weight oil).

NOw, using your illustrations, a 10W50 oil would be a 10 weight oil (suitable for winter use, thus the W) with additives that thicken it to a 50 weight oil at operating temperature, but if those additives break down enough, then the oil remains close to a 10 weight oil.

That's how I've always understood it to work, though I don't have an actual source to cite.

[snip...]
Reply to
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.

Here is another explanation:

There are other links on that page as well.

Happy reading.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

That may be a reasonable explanation, but full synthetics behave quite a bit differently than conventional oil.

Reply to
Mark A

yes, the main difference being that the viscosity remains more stable with temperature meaning that viscosities like 0W40 or 5W50 are now practical whereas they were not with conventional dino squeezins.

nate

Reply to
N8N

I'm not certain, but I believe a synthetic 10w-30 oil and a dino

10w-30 oil are based on oils of totally different weights. The dino 10w-30 is based on a 10-weight oil. It has VIIs (viscosity index improvers) added to it to increase viscosity.

But the synthetic 10w-30 oil (not conventional) is not based on a 10-weight oil like the dino, but instead based on a

30-weight. And it has what are called "pour point depressants" so that the synthetic oil flows much better than the conventional at really cold temps.

A problem with VIIs (viscosity index improvers) added to conventional oils is their degradation over time, especially in cold weather.

Reply to
Built_Well

A full synthetic oil has "some" multi-viscosity properties even without any additives, which is one reason it is far superior to conventional oil.

Reply to
Mark A

Mark, you finally said something intelligent. Good for you.

However, continue to avoid the 0w-30 oils lest they bite you on the nose - LOL

Reply to
Built_Well

I will continue to avoid 0W-30 unless an ice age returns, or I move to Alaska.

Reply to
Mark A

You're probably referring to "viscosity modifiers," which do change their characteristics to make the thickness of the oil stay more constant over temperature. But over the last 20 years, more and more oils are being made with no viscosity modifiers whatsoever. So no, they don't always have polymer additives anymore. Synthetics, in particular, can be made to have a wide mult-viscosity rating without resorting to modifiers.

Reply to
Steve

Or, maybe, you buy an engine that specifies a 0w30 oil..... :-)

Personally I greeted the oddball 5w20 rating with a lot of skepticism, however a lot of OEMs do specify it. I'm sure that the main reason is to improve CAFE mileage performance, but its also a perfectly adequate lubricant for those engines.

Reply to
Steve

You have the problem. You can't see the difference between your statement and his. Let me simplify it for you.

His statement: When cool 10W-30 oil has a viscosity of 90.

Your statement: When cool a10W-30 oil has the viscosity of a

10 weight oil...............hint:(10W oil has a viscosity of 90 at cool temperatures)
Reply to
tnom

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