Toyota did a bad job on inspection

My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy day. The front brakes and rotors were replaced in December,

2003. On a recent maintenance service in March, Toyota Dealer performed "Emergency Brake Adjustment" as it states on its sheet. I don't get it how Toyota technician didn't find anything wrong with the brake.
Reply to
Smurf
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That's not a bad lifespan to have a car last over 1800 years.

But seriously folks, don't assume a mechanical defect? Disc brake rotors are out in the open and get wet from rain splash when the car is parked. Water on the rotors can cause the pads to hydroplane and braking force is diminished. If a little time passes and surface rust forms on the rotors, the brakes can be more grabby and stopping distance for the same pedal effort actually shortens. Whenever a car is first driven after being parked in the rain, a little judicious brake application early will dry water and/or scrub off the rust. In normal driving, disc rotation does a pretty good job of keeping the small amount of water that can get by the splash shield from staying on the disc.

Due to weight transfer to the front on deceleration and having more weight on the front of most cars due to engine location, the front brakes provide most of the stopping power. E brake adjustment only involves the rear wheels at most and is often just done at the handle to establish free play. Anyhow, there probably was no defect to see.

Hopefully, your owners manual should have some information about getting the brakes back to normal after a rainstorm. If not, that would be a an error on Toyota's part. Brake testing after being parked in the rain is something that needs to be done on any disc equipped car until the force required retuns to normal.

Pat.

Reply to
Greywolf

Pat I've never heard of brake disk pads hydroplaning, can you please explain? tnx

Reply to
Henry Kolesnik

Your problem was the lack of braking ability those second century Camry's had. ;)

------------------------------------------------ The DNC - Building a bridge to the 20th Century.

Reply to
Eric Dreher

They get wet. The water reduces friction. You step on the brake and the water acts as a lubricant between the pads and the rotor.

Good idea, when driving in particularly wet weather, to step on the brake once in a while to dry them out, esp in torrential downpours or after driving through large puddles.

You've never had this happen before? i have noticed in all the cars I have owned, some ARE more succeptable to this than others.

Reply to
hachiroku

Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a tire running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on the water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of the car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking system as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the heat created will evaporate any water.

Reply to
Henry Kolesnik

Hydroplaning occurs when any fast moving object is lifted to the surface of water. Tires over water is just one example. Boats are often made with planing hulls for more speed to get most of the hull on top of the water rather than pushing it aside. Brake pads also are prevented from touching the rotor by the film of water. The film is very small and quickly pushed aside and boiled off by a light brake application until the proper feel is restored. Do that when first driving after a period of precipitation or even a dewy morning and the brakes will work properly when needed.

Rotors are sometimes cross drilled or slotted to lighten the rotor, help cool it, and to improve wet weather braking and racing condition braking where pad outgassing can occur. Do a search on brake rotors and hydroplaning and you'll see plenty of examples. Hydroplaning pads on wet rotors has a lot to do with friction as it results in thin film boundary lubrication..

Pat

Reply to
Greywolf

Sure you can - the weight transfer forward on braking moves a large percentage of the car's weight onto the front wheels.

But if you are driving in several inches of water, you still have a problem with hydroplaning and traction, as the tire grooves try to move out the water and get a good rubber to pavement friction interface to brake with. If the brakes lock, then you aren't squirting the water in motion, you are pushing a wave. It might not be exactly technically hydroplaning, but the effect is the same.

Right - but it still takes up to a second to get soggy front disc pads and rotors dried and working, and the delay is very noticeable.

Obviously you haven't driven a car with four wheel drum brakes lately to remember the drawbacks of that system. If the shoes get soaked and there's a film of water inside the drum, they can take several seconds (up to 10) to get fully dried out and start giving you effective braking.

And when you are driving at freeway speeds, 5 to 10 seconds before the brakes decide to cooperate and kick in is an eternity. Then they decide to start working one at a time and it's spin catching time, spinning the steering wheel lock-to-lock a few times... Been There, Done That, and I can Gua-Ron-Tee it is not fun - you're too darned busy trying to not hit anything.

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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

OK...We're talking two different things here. If he hit the brakes, and they GRABBED but he still skidded then obviously that's the car hydroplaning on the surface of the road. Even if it wasn't raining very hard, or had just started raining in particular, then grease, oil and dirt may have risen to the top of the road surface and caused slippry conditions. This is different from hydroplaning, when the speed of the vehicle combines with lift and perhaps worn tires and the tire rides on a cushion of water.

From the OP's description and the mention of 'hydroplaning brake pads', I thought his brakes had no friction, which used to happen to me in a 240SX.

Reply to
Hachiroku

There was no braking at all. The tires didn't skid on the road. I tried brake it twice. The car just moved ahead as if my foot is on the accelerator.

Reply to
Smurf

An emergency brake adjustment has nothing to do with your service brakes (the ones operated by the brake pedal.)

You did not mention whether you have rear drum brakes or disc brakes, condition of the rear brakes, whether you have an automatic or manual transmission, the condition of your tires (tread remaining and air pressure), whether you have ABS and if it activated, how much water was on the road, road surface and coefficient of friction, how long it had been raining, how long it has been since the area where the accident occurred had a heavy rain, vehicle speed when brakes were applied, distance traveled from brake application to whatever you crashed into, impact speed, whether the vehicle traveled in a straight line or not, what typed of marks your tires left in the road, the condition of your brake light filaments, whether the brake pedal dropped to the floor or felt spongy, your driving experience, etc.

As you can see there is a huge number of variables that affect stopping distance, and any explanations you get in this forum will probably be uninformed guesses unless the poster has experience reconstructing accidents and has the information I listed above.

On a rainy day, brakes will get wet, tires will have less traction, and roads will be a lot more slippery right after it starts raining than if it has been raining all day. Since Toyota was not making cars in the year

200, I'm assuming that your Camry was built some time after 1999. Modern brake systems are very reliable, and of the dozens of vehicles I checked out where people claimed the brakes failed, NONE exhibited any signs of brake failure, with the opinions of the investigating police department and insurance companies concurring that operator error was the cause. Believe me, if your insurance company thought that the vehicle was defective and they can recover some of their costs, they will pursue it.
Reply to
Ray O

Unless there is evidence of massive brake failure, like an empty master cylinder, you were pressing on the accelerator, not the brake pedal. This is an error that even experienced drivers make.

Reply to
Ray O

I'd add that its an error that experienced but still incompetant drivers make.

Stewart DIBBS

Reply to
Stewart DIBBS

Audi had the same issue. Driver swore they were standing on the brake and the car kept accelerating - they were standing on the gas. Audi took the wrong approach and called the drivers idiots, which ruined Audi reputation. This is not happen in the Audi with manual transmission, only automatics. Seem it takes more skill to drive a manual, enough skill to not make this mistake. Saab, by design, had the brake pedal right in front of the right foot. You had to shift your foot to the right to find the gas pedal. In a panic where you just shoved your right foot forward, you would find the brake. Toyota should take a public relations lesson from Audi and not blame the driver.

Reply to
ma_twain

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Anyone with common sense and some driving experience would know what you said. With that said, common sense is lacking. Many drivers will attempt to squeeze every last mile out of their tires and brake pads/shoes. Then they blame the technicians who work on their car and accuse them of trying to rip them off by suggesting "unnecessary" work.

Here is a hint. When you get your next car or get this one fixed, test its handling and braking in a safe area, like an empty parking lot. Do this when it is dry, wet, snowy and icy. You will find the limits of your car and your skills quickly, in a safe environment. Hopefully, your skills will increase and you will learn to maintain you vehicle. A better alternative would be to go to a high performance driving school. At least there you will have professional instructors. It is more expensive, but you will improve your skills and it can be fun :-)

Reply to
ma_twain

I don't know that Toyota did blame the driver in this case.

When I worked for Toyota, we did not actually blame the driver for accidents even when the driver is obviously the cause, unless the driver sued. As a district service manager, we were not supposed to write down the cause of an accident - just record the physical condition of the vehicle, what was working, what was not, etc. and let the lawyers come up with the letters.

Reply to
Ray O

Good advice!

My guess is that most people don't realize that the first rain after a long dry spell will make all the accumulated oil on the roadway float on a thin film that is as slippery as snow or ice and much slipperier than the road would be after it has rained continuously for a while and washed the oil away. When I lived in California, it seemed like there were more accidents in the hour after the first heavy rain in the fall after a dry summer than in the first snows in Chicago.

Reply to
Ray O

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