freon replacement for '90 Volvo GL? - - help a poor girl

So what is your opinion of the propane/butane blend (60/40 IIRC) that is a direct drop-in replacement for R12?

Some places (eg the state where I live) ban this, but others allow it. Despite dire warnings of how dangerous it would be to have hydrocarbons in the A/C system, AFAIK there has been no discernable difference in safety. It seems that the industry had spent _so_ big on R134a that the idea of a more suitable, compatible replacement was a big problem...

That it's an awful lot of money for camp stove fuel.

Doesn't matter since the EPA has jurisdiction and they have it as an unapproved substitute refrigerant for mobil air conditioning.

If that were the case, the companies manufacturing and marketing the HC blends would have no trouble -proving- such to the EPA and the EPA would then put it on their SNAP list. Fact of the matter is; there have been cases and there is documentation of people having been injured as the result of an HC blend being used in a mobil air conditioning unit.

So the list of suitable, compatible refrigerants other than R-134a that already exist fits into this theory how?

If you recall *I* pointed out that the lubricants were incompatible. My beef was that you were either overlooking or ignoring the

"evacuate the system first".

The fact is, a simple evac, drain of the old oil, recharge with 134a and PAG and replacement of some o-rings and the charging fittings *IS* what constitutes a "retrofit" .

Of course I do.

Huh? It's quite cheap, actually. Some people I know in another state actually blend the propane and butane themselves to get the ratio right. You can _easily_ buy the two separately.

ROTFLAMO. Do you americans _really_ believe that yours is the only country on the internet? You're posting to a _worldwide_ news group.

Last time I checked, the US EPA had no jurisdiction outside the USA. Unless they're extending their jurisdiction to cover countries that the USA illegally invade, of course.

Manufacturing and marketing? You've got to be kidding. You buy butane canisters and get a BBQ cylinder filled at the local camping centre, hardware shop or service station. Then, you blend by mass.

The problem is that it is _so_ cheap to get that nobody can corner the market. No point getting a gas approved if you won't make any sales from it.

When servicing it on the assmption that it was R12? Labelling that warns that the system contains propane/butane is pretty easy.

They really should stop using flame type leak detectors, anyway...

The A/C system is a closed loop. Aside from crashes, (where the potential for R12 to ignite and produce *toxic* phosgene gas is about equal to the risk of propane/butane burning and causing burns) there should never be any risk of refrigerant related injuries.

How many of these other "suitable, compatible" regfrigerants are drop-in replacements for R12 _without modification_ and are not proprietary substances?

You realise that there is talk of moving to CO2 for A/C in cars for environmental reasons? That is, of course, ignoring the fact that the refrigerant is so much less efficient that they'll need something like twice the energy input to drive the A/C?

When you do a R-12 to R-134 conversion, you MAY need to do more than evacuate and change the oil. PAG (134) and Mineral Oil (R-12) are incompatible, so you'll use Ester Oil instead. When converting, I like to replace the receiver/dryer, fittings, schrader valves, and sometimes the TXV. If the compressor is being replaced, it's not a bad idea to flush the system. Reason being that you have no idea what is in the evaporator, condenser, or lines. It could have metal flakes or parts of seals from the old compressor that would burn up a new compressor.

__________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4

Yes you can, now compare that to what the companies that market HC-12a and OZ-12 get for it.

Yeah, and I should have known that based upon "athol " how?

Last time I checked, you have your address munged. (sad that ones written word needs to be disguised for what ever reason, eh?) Shit happens when you play hide and seek. Pardon me for the inconvenience to your foreign ass. Oh, and the fact that you think I might have any sort of control over which countries the U.S. wages war on is....um... flattering, or a non-sequitur, or, what ever....

Yeah, so? This addresses the legality for certain residents of certain countries, how? As you said; "You're posting to a _worldwide_ news group."

Really? If it's so pointless, why is it that every time I visit a swap meet or flea market, the stuff is all packaged and labeled for sale? (sale of that crap is not illegal, only its use in mobile AC systems) Bear in mind; "You're posting to a _worldwide_ news group."

Yup.

Yet the labeling isn't being done, nor is the change out of the service fittings as prescribed by law in the country that I'm familiar with. (IOWs, people are being sneaky about it) Considering that in the U.S. or any other country that has HC refrigerants banned, a label would be in actuality a printed admission of breaking the law.

I haven't seen a flame type leak detector used in over 20 years, and [they] are not the only cause found responsible for the resultant fire and burned flesh.

Spare me.... I've been servicing automotive AC for over 29 years.

Are you trying to sell something here? Want to go for the "there's already XX gallons of gasoline on board" arguement?

In the U.S. there is no such thing as a drop in replacement. Since your original post did NOT specify that this discussion would exclude the U.S., you'll have to settle for that which I know is indigenous to the U.S. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances...

Yes, I'm well aware of the talk of using CO2 as a refrigerant. Until it appears, it gets filed in the same folder as 42 volt electrical systems, hover craft and (my favorite from David E. Davis) that hoods would be welded shut before the millennium change.

It's not approved for use in the US. I've heard of people using similiar "blends" in their tractors and what not. But I would highly recommend NOT using propane or butane in your automobile AC system.

It's not advisable to use it. If you ever have to have your system evacuated, you will be charged a hefty sum for the disposal of your "refrigerant"

__________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4

Couldn't you just light a match as it escapes? KennyH

Horsepower is cheaper than therapy.

Point taken. Some people will pay top dollar for a cheap product with a fancy brand label. :-)

Last time I checked, every one of my posts has a sig on the end, containing a link to a .au web site that contains my real email address munged with a piece that is clearly indicated as the piece to remove... It hasn't been a problem for anybody else so far.

The news server usage policy requires a valid email address to be used, and they are the ones who suggest privacy.net - they don't allow munging in headers. I _only_ munge to avoid spam.

Oh, and the news server is in Germany. :-)

Depends where you hide. Hiding in the sewer could achieve that result. :-)

I don't own a donkey, and if I did, it wouldn't have been inconvenienced by your post. :-p

Oh, and I'm not foreign to where I am. :-)

I don't believe that I did. I was just taking a small poke at the blatant stupidity of a certain Dubya.

If it isn't legal to use, why is it legal to buy labelled for that application?!?

Indeed. And in some parts of the world, they haven't implemented bans on the basis of false, inadequate or misleading information or uninformed opinion.

Yep. stupid people will buy it pre-packaged. If it was legal, you'd be able to buy it pre-blended to the right ratio from just about every A/C supplier and probably fuel distributors.

If it was legal, it'd probably be _cheaper_.

Yep. I'm in a country where you can't get _any_ R12. Recovered R12 can only be "cleaned" and reinserted into the same vehicle legally. If the quantity is below the level required for the A/C to work properly, the vehicle's A/C has to be converted or de-commissioned.

From some posts here recently, I'm getting the impression that you can still buy R12 in the USA. We've not been able to get it for _several_ years. That's insane.

So the law is causing the increased risk of injury. Hmm...

The last one I saw was when I was an apprentice. The comment was mostly intended to be tongue in cheek.

I don't have _any_ diesel or petrol (gasoline) on board, thanks.

I just don't happen to believe that there is any justifcation for micro$oft style "fear, uncertainty and doubt" being used to promote expensive solutions by eliminate cheaper technically superior solutions. Are you going to tell me that R134a will out perform propane/butane in an originally R12 application?

My point exactly. Thank you. A perfectly viable drop in replacement has been legislated out of use. Consequently, people have to use the more expensive, poorer performing gases that are legal.

I can live with that. One just needs to be aware that there is actually what passes for civilisation outside the USA, just as the social structure in the USA passes for civilisation. :-)

IIRC, there was recently mention in an SAE magazine of the EU setting implementation timetables for phasing out R134a.

At the present rate, it'll arrive everywhere outside the USA before 42V electricals. Of course, the USA will probably still be making new R12 when everybody else has phased out R134a...

Talk about world leading... [That should get a bite. ;-)]

LOL. Put a burner jet on the output of the evacuation pump. Easy. :-)

Or simply release it into the atmosphere. Like you do every time you use a hydrocarbon propelled aerosol can (deodorant, paint, etc.) or fill a propane (BBQ) cylinder. Propane and Butane aren't controlled substances for atmospheric release.

I'm so glad I'm not there. :-)

Aside from legal reasons in some parts of the world, are there any _technical_ reasons why not? Neither are corrosive. The correct blend behaves exactly the same as R12, giving more efficient operation than R134a converted systems. The closed system doesn't present any more danger to the operators than with R12 or R134a.

_Technical_ reasons why not? I know people who have been running this for several years, and I'm curious...

Try mixing mineral oil and PAG and let us know what develops.. They are incompatible and should not be mixed. Even if you evacuate the system -- you won't get everything out. Use Ester Oil.

__________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4

And the point should also be made that those same people rarely have the proper training in servicing an air conditioning system nor the knowledge of the applicable safety measures that need to be adhered to.

Since you're the one raising an objection here, evidently it has been a problem for you. Do you europeans really believe that anyone should be inconvenienced and have to fire up a web browser to find out the true location that someone is posting from just to avoid the issue that you're raising? Most people read usenet posts from the top to the bottom, most if not all business correspondence has the pertinent information such as -location- at the top.

And I get along quite nicely by using a mail client that removes spam before it hits my computer, avoiding anything that would make my location inconvenient to discern by another.

Further adding to the confusion of where you are located. Sorry, again, not my fault.

Don't know... I've never felt the need to hide anywhere for any reason.

Good one...

Given the objections that you've raised, you should probably do something to make that a little clearer to the rest of us.

You -do- realize that I am but one of about 280 million people and again, have little to do with anything being done by one of our leaders... Poke all you want, it still doesn't accomplish anything.

For the same reason that guns are legal to purchase and own but not legal to use in certain applications. IOWs, the product is so common that it can't be banned, but it's use under circumstances where it is deemed harmful, is.

That's precisely the point. In the U.S. the information is inadequate, and remains so at the hand of those who sell and market HC refrigerant blends since it is -their- responsibility to prove its safety, something that they have not been able to do after over a decades time. I guess some countries managed to learn lessons about the use and handling of flammable gasses, and some didn't. (Hindenburg ring a bell?)

It -is- available pre-blended in the right ratios. That is not the point, nor is it an issue.

So would Heroin, Cocaine, Anthrax and Plutonium.

Then I take it that your country has no provision (just like the U.S.) for cheap air conditioning in its constitution. IOWs, (just like the U.S.) if you want cold air blowing into you car, it will cost -you- money. You should probably know, I'm not a big fan of entitlements.

Yes you can, -if- you have the proper certificates and in some states, the proper licenses. It's around $30 per pound wholesale, but the demand is getting lesser and lesser with time.

Am I wrong in thinking that -that- is what your elected officials enacted into law?

But it takes more than labeling.

Circular logic.

Tongue in cheek and someone getting their face burned off don't go too well together.

So, this vehicle that you can't get R-12 for runs on what?

Tantamount to saying that it's okay to transport gasoline in a plastic milk jug when it's time to re-fuel your lawn mower. (do they have lawn mowers in Austria?) The whole thing argues back to whether the system being retro- fitted is of sufficient strength to contain the flammable gas should the need arise. Err on the side of caution, hat way there are fewer recalls and fewer lawsuits.

I have no way of knowing since I have never done an HC conversion on a motor vehicle. Abiding by the laws of my country has served me well in keeping me out of jail and away from monetary sanctions. The argument is not whether HC blends function as an efficient replacement refrigerant, the argument is strictly over safety (which hasn't been demonstrated yet) and compliance with he laws. I can tell you that every R-12 to R134a conversion that -I've- done has performed very satisfactorily, but then I won't do one if I'd be forced to cut corners and not follow recommended procedures, and, the cost of all of these conversions has been less dollars to the customer than what a standard R-12 recharge would have cost them given the current pricing of R-12 in our marketplace.

You -can't- "legislated out of use" something that doesn't exist. The only "drop in replacement" for R-12 is R-12. Even if all that needs to be done is to affix a label near the service port, then by definition, -that- refrigerant is no longer a "drop in replacement" since it's use dictates that additional steps be taken to facilitate its use. The additional steps needed when performing a conversion no matter what the gas is being used are for the benefit of the consumer as much as they are for anything else. If specific service fitting weren't mandated for each different gas available, there would be cross contamination issues that would add extra cost to the vehicle owner. Many recovery/recycle machines are not equipped to handle flammable gasses because at the time of their design, the use of HC refrigerants in them was not anticipated. I've seen the results of an AC recovery machine that was mistakenly connected to the Schraeder valve on a EFI fuel system. The damage was catastrophic to the machine, the vehicle and the numbskull that was operating it. This all plays part and parcel to the -why- that myself and others who frequent these groups take a very dim view of amateurs who attempt to service their AC systems without a hint of formal training.

I don't consider R-134a at $3 a pound to be all that expensive, and the performance achieved with it tie directly to the efforts made in doing the job correctly.

I am very aware of what you speak of here, it's one of the things that make usenet spectacular, my only failing was not noticing (digging) for the country of origin of your original post.

Said timetables depending on overcoming the technical issues that are presently in the way... We'll see.

The U.S. isn't making any new R-12 and hasn't been in accordance of the Montreal Protocol, which is something approaching 10 years now.

No bite because your facts are in error. Try China and/or Mexico. There are plenty of countries that didn't sign and/or agree to the provisions of the above mentioned treaty, they are still cranking out tons of R-12 of questionable quality.

You are correct, I was bass-ackward. Ester it is. I do little retrofit work, as most of our fleet is less than 5 years old. The principal is correct though, and our discussion stemmed more from the Daniels misquote of the OP's statement than from any technical disagreement. (And using isopropane/butane seems pretty damn risky)

I'm not european.

I think that you'll find that you're the only one with a problem working out where I am.

You misunderstood my meaning and separated the two parts.

It is insane that, while most of the developed world is phasing out R12 and have not allowed its sale for many years, the USA continues to allow its sale, meaning that they are continuing to add to the problem.

The 350 chev in my Volvo runs on the stuff that started this discussion. :-)

I use an electric mower. :-p

If they have grass over there, I guess they have mowers...

Is the USA importing it, or do they have a stockpile that will eventually run out?

I hope that you're not trying to use the "third world countries are doing it, so it's okay for the USA to do it too" excuse for continuing to allow R12 to be added to the US vehicle fleet...

No. Importation of R12 into the US is illegal.

DS

Any idea how big their stockpile is?

Heh... I'm not american.

I'm not having much of a problem. You're the one asking open based questions and then objecting that the answers that you get are indigenous to the country that the respondent is living in. IOWs, if you wanted answers specific to the countries in which you're currently living, you should have specified as such.

Which problem is that? The only problems that I'm currently willing to acknowledge are the ones having to do with the regulation, licensing and safe handling of R-12. Not once in the last nine years of usenet posting have I advocated a position that promulgated the belief that R-12 was an environmental hazard. -That- would have directly aligned my beliefs with those of Lloyd Parker, and given the choice between

-that- and an enema with glowing Bar-B-Cue charcoals, I'd have chosen the latter.

It runs on Freon? ;-)

Okay, so you have a 350 Chevy engine in your Volvo and it runs on propane. Tell me, are the lines that run from the storage bottle to the regulator or mixer or injectors made from thin gauge aluminum?

That's not an answer.

Okay, I guess I'm not so good at deciphering country codes from address headers.

If it's being imported, it's not being done legally. There are stocks of R-12 that due to recovery and recycling efforts have proven to be sufficient to service what remaining fleet of R-12 vehicles that exist. Yes, eventually it will run out.

You're way off base here. The fleet size of vehicles that originally used R-12 is shrinking every year. Since our government (for whatever reasons) decided to not adopt a confiscatory stance on the existing private property known as R-12, there is still a supply of R-12. If you have a problem with the morality of that policy, it would be hard to convince me that it's not due to the different types of government we live under.

.at = Austria .au = Australia