freon replacement for '90 Volvo GL? - - help a poor girl

And becomes phosgene, among other nasties....

Yes, I do. The simple fact is that the environment has natural mechanisms that deal with and destroy R-12 that leaks into the air- as evidenced by the remarkable recovery in high-altitude ozone levels in the past several years. The problem WAS (not is) that we were overwhelming those processes with the sheer volume of R-12 that we released into the atmosphere for 50+ years. Remember that hairspray, electronics testing "freeze" spray, shaving cream and those little horns people carried to football games ALL dumped R-12 straight into the air for years. And it was common practice to just dump R-12 out of auto A/C systems into the air during repairs. Not so any longer.

Now that the world knows better and the rate of release into the environment is down to a tiny fraction of a percent of what it used to be, I see recycling and re-using R-12 as a very environmentally and economically sound thing to do. Yes, some is still lost to the atmosphere, but at a rate that is harmless. And unlike incineration this doesn't create OTHER hazardous materials that have to be disposed of.

That is the funny part. After gazillions of tonns of R-12 were dumped into the atmosphere, suddenly the tiny incremental percentage started to matter. Some politicians made a career out of R-12 prohibition. So, instead of spending $20 to recharge your A/C system, it requires $100's out of consumer pocket. Such cars would disappear within ~10 years anyway, so minor R-12 release would not have mattered at all. The whole thing is way out of proportion ...

Indeed. Someone who looked at this thread but didn't post to it made comment in another newsgroup to the effect that his A/C started off as R12, got converted to R134a and underperformed _badly_, then got filled with straight domestic (BBQ) propane and has been working flawlessly for two years now... No butane blending, and apparently colder than it ever was even with R12. He didn't even consider the oil - I'm guessing that it is running ester with the propane without any problems!

I don't know where you are, but I've never come across moisture problems in any commercial LPG, propane or butane in any part of Australia. The most common way that water is introduced into an LPG fuel system is because the filler cap is missing (illegal) and there was water on the outside of the check valve in the filler before the bowser nozzle was attached. The amount of water in commercially supplied LPG (automotive variable blend), propane or butane here is well within what a reciever/drier can handle.

Having worked extensively on LPG fuelled vehicles, I can assure you the danger posed by petrol leaking from a car is far worse! In spite of LPG being heavier than air, the amount of airflow needed to carry it away is miniscule!

When I was a bit younger, in the late 80s, there was a gentleman who was teaching me to fly R/C airplanes. In his personal plane, he had pneumatically actuated landing gear. The way he charged the system was with a can of R-12 refrigerant -- Which was cheap and widely available. It was about a dollar or two a can at the time.

I suspect he's long since changed the way he actuates his landing gear.

__________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4

There's copper, then there's copper. My 1975 245 had white painted (epoxy) lines that rusted thru where the fittings had cut the finish.

GREAT TO SEE YOU BACK DANIEL YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF !!!!!

Imagine a normal accident when butane or any other flammable gas is involved in the condenser .It could turn a normal every day minor prang in to an inferno !

Took you a while to think of it? Don't forget that LPG is already used as a fuel, and that the quantity in the A/C is quite small...

Oh, and if you're worried about flammable gas in the condenser, you'd best get rid of the R12 or R134a immediately. :-)

I'd rather have propane and butane in the A/C than _any_ petrol (gasoline) in the vehicle _at all_. That stuff's far more dangerous!

I had my '92 converted to the new stuff... it only cost $175, and that was using new Volvo parts. There's a conversion kit that Volvo sells. I didn't have the dealer do it though.

It works fine so far.

-jeff

I think the fire/explosion risk from using LPG as a vehicle refrigerant is small, but it is there.

Comparing it to using gasoline as a motor fuel ignores the fact that fuel lines & components (on modern cars anyway) are not located inside the pasenger compartment.

That evaporator full of pressurised LPG beside my right ankle would at least make me think about quitting smoking

As far as conventional refrigerants go, at least they are not flammable at atmospheric pressure. Expose R12 to open flame though and the result is phosgene gas. From a safety viewpoint, I think R134A is the best of what is commonly/economically available right now.

Regards, Al.

...in a system specifically designed to store, handle, transport and meter it, yes.

...and that automotive A/C systems were *not* specifically designed to store, handle, transport or meter a flammable refrigerant...

Neither R12 nor R134a is flammable.

That preference is based on no science whatsoever.

-Stern

Er, I have ...

The good news is, with only 1.5 kg or so in the system, it burns quick and then you can go back in...

--Fishplate

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