Here are 12 days worth of electric-vehicle myths

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If only GM had not murdered the EV-1...
Here are 12 days worth of electric-vehicle myths http://tinyurl.com/yjmuf9a
On this, a day when lots of kids will be playing with small electric
cars that just showed up under the tree, we thought it would be a good time to raise the question of whether lots of us will be driving big, real ones soon as well.
Plug In America, an advocacy group of electric-car fans, has twisted the 12 Days of Christmas into the 12 reasons why an electric-car society can work.
No partridge. No pear tree. No five golden rings. But here are what the group considers 12 often-voiced criticisms of EVs, and why the worries are unfounded:
CRITICISM: EVs don't have enough range. You'll be stranded when you run out of electricity. RESPONSE: Americans drive an average of 40 miles per day, according to the U.S. Dept. of Transportation. Most new pure electrics will have a range of at least double that and can be charged at any ordinary electrical outlet or publicly accessible station with a faster charge.
CRITICISM: EVs are good for short city trips only. RESPONSE: Consumers have owned and driven EVs for seven years or more and regularly use them for trips of up to 120 miles.
CRITICISM: EVs just replace the tailpipe with a smokestack. RESPONSE: Even today, with 52% of U.S. electricity generated by coal-fired power plants, plug-in cars reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and most other pollutants compared with conventional gas or hybrid vehicles.
CRITICISM: The charging infrastructure must be built before people will adopt EVs. RESPONSE: Most charging will be done at home, so a public charging infrastructure isn't a prerequisite.
CRITICISM:: The grid will crash if millions of plug-ins charge at once. RESPONSE: Off-peak electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel the daily commutes of 73% percent of all cars, light trucks, SUVs and vans on the road today if they were electrics, a 2007 study by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory found.
CRITICISM:: Battery chemicals are bad for the environment and can't be recycled RESPONSE: About 99% batteries in conventional cars are recycled, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. The metals in newer batteries are more valuable and recycling programs are already being developed for them.
CRITICISM: Batteries take too long to charge. RESPONSE: The most convenient place and time to charge is at home while you sleep. Even using the slowest 120-volt outlet, the car can be left to charge overnight, producing about 40 miles of range.
CRITICISM: Plug-ins are too expensive for market penetration RESPONSE: New technologies are typically costly. Remember when cell phones and DVDs were introduced? Also, the government stimulus package includes a $2,500 to $7,500 tax credit for EVs and PHEVs. Some states are considering additional incentives ($5,000 in California and Texas).
CRITICISM: Batteries will cost $15,000 to replace after only a few years RESPONSE: The battery is the priciest part of a plug-in, but costs will drop as production increases and the auto industry is expected to be purchasing up to $25 billion in advanced batteries annually by 2015. Some car makers plan to lease their batteries, so replacement won't be an issue. The Chevy Volt PHEV will have a 10-year battery warranty that would cover battery replacement.
CRITICISM: There isn't enough lithium in the world to make all the new batteries. RESPONSE: Even in a worst-case scenario of zero battery recycling, aggressive EV sales, no new mining methods or sites, existing lithium stores will be sufficient for projected EV production for the next 75 years. ion.
CRITICISM: Lithium batteries are dangerous and can explode. RESPONSE: Among the many kinds of lithium-ion batteries, lithium-cobalt batteries found in consumer electronics can pose a fire risk in certain circumstances. These risks can be mitigated by the use of advanced-battery management systems and careful design that prevents "thermal runaway."
CRITICISM: Most of us will still be driving gas cars through 2050. RESPONSE: Several irrefutable factors are driving the shift from gasoline to plug-in vehicles: ever-toughening federal fuel economy standards and state caps on greenhouse gas emissions; projected price hikes for petroleum products as demand increases and supply flattens or drops; broad agreement over the need for America to reduce its reliance on petroleum for economic and national security reasons; and climate change, which is occurring faster than previously thought, according to the journal Science and others.
--
Civis Romanus Sum

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Jim Higgins wrote:

So the Volt has a 40 mile range. Smart thinking. Maybe the second 40 will be an option.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sponsored by the Pink Energizer Bunny :-)
--
Civis Romanus Sum

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On 27/12/2009 7:05 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

40 miles range when new, given my cell and laptop battery history, in 3 years I will be lucky to get 10 miles range.
Heck, the cell I have now lasted 10-12 days when new 20 months ago. Now, lucky to get 2 days. In two years of ownership, it is junk.
I suspect the Volt batteries will not be much different.
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The difference is the battery in your laptop can not be constantly recharged. The batteries in the Volt will constantly be recharged at speeds above 40 MPH.

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Unlike hybrids the engine in the VOLT does not motivate the vehicle to only recharges the batteries. That can extend to miles to over 10o miles

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Mike Hunter wrote:

True, but I'm still skeptical.on the real practicality for most users. Probably good for the short commute or shopping trip, not a serious travel trip though. A gas powered Malibu can go pretty far on the $10,000 or so saved on the initial purchase. At $2.70 a gallon that is 3700 gallons of gas. At 25 mpg that is over 90,000 miles. Tell me again why I need one.
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On 27/12/2009 6:50 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

And: - no larger utility bill as you don't plug it in. - even the Volt needs gas, especially when the batteries get old. - heater and A/C work much better, does the Volt even do this? - batteries will need to be replaced. Lithium will loose 20% or more of it's abilties each year and that is optimal.
I did a similar cost analysis and decided to keep the loaded F150 V8 but is a all purpose all seasons one vehicle solution. Based on reliability and utility. One battery pack on a hybrid pays for a lot of gas and given how my cell and laptop batteries go, hybrid users are going to have to pay a big price every 3 years.
We decided to go to one vehicle and saved lots of serious tax paid green. Only one depreciable asset, only one to insure, only one to get serviced and licensed. Now we don't even miss the absense of the second vehicle.
I suspect this is the real trend as vehicle costs to net wages on a national average has been getting worse over the last 2 decades when in reality it should be getting better. Hybrids do nothing to solve the real issue why people are buying less autos.
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

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Well pet dog a nipping at my heals, show us the amth behind how a Volt will keep green in my pocket. So we can see you lack of rationality and inability to do basic grade school math.
Give us a 5 year TCO cost on two vehicles, Volt and F150. Each will drive say 20,000 miles a year. Include vacations, hot, cold whatever... Include resale and consumables like batteries and utility costs, including losses in recharging.
Want to see this. Could be real good for a laugh.
On 28/12/2009 2:01 PM, Mike Hunter wrote:

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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

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Who said you should buy one. I was simply pointing to an error in what you posted.

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Mike Hunter wrote:

There was no error in what I posted, it still only goes 40 miles on electric and needs gas in one form or another. Given the price premium over a conventional design, I don't see the practicality. Perhaps some day, but not now.
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On 28/12/2009 3:05 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If anything, I thought your post was generous to the Volts side. It is much worse wheny you figure you are certain to need a $4,000 set of batteries every 3 to 4 years.
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

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On 27/12/2009 5:59 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:

And if I want to conserve cash and go to one less vehicle, say 1 or 2 instead of 2 or 3 I need a vehicle that go any range I want any time. Really want to conserve? Go down to one good vehicle wih range and utility.

Cite, including battery replacement costs, utility bills and resale.

Debateable. Much depends where you live.

Fine. Sitting at a gas station I have to wait 4 hours for a charge IF they let me plug in and charge me a lot if they do.

Sad fact of the mater is it will. Our electric grids are often maxed out as it is. So you do groceries in the mornign and need the car in the evening, do you buy 2? I understand that green is from my pocket to...

Anything can be recycled for a price. Who is going to pay for it? Pretty much has to be the buyer. And if you don't charge them up front, think of the lead, lithium and cadmium leaching into the environment as they are tossed away at no cost onto vacant land.

How many KWH does it take to charge the things? Never seen this well hidden, I suspect deliberately well hidden number. If it takes 20KWH to fully charge at 30 cents a KWH, then that is $6 plus taxes on the utility bill for 40 minutes of drive.

If you are considering an EV, I would seriously recommend a rational and thorough and unbiases cost analysis. Or the green is what leaves your pocket.

Actually, barring a big breakthrough that hasn't yet occured, many of the metals involved are in short supply. If all of a sudden 20% of the cars become electric, a big shortage of these metals will double, triple or more in cost and even availability.

Cite. Lithium is expensive. It does not occur naturally in a usable form amd is clasified as a toxic substance. It is not inert, having major reactions with skin and water. It is corrosive. Not the kind of substance you want lying around in the kitchen. In fact in it's most popular use, the case to hold it is the largest component of a laptop or cell phone battery. As if that stuff gets loose, it ranks right in there with lead and mercury for toxic and contamination effects.
With the main sources of Lithium in Austrailia, China and South America...it sure soes not lead the US to self sufficiency. In 2007 world wide producion was about 22,000 tons. The price doubled in 2007 to $5500 a ton on demand for small laptops laptops and cell phones.
Given a auto needs hundreds it not thousands of times more lithium to do just 40 miles than a laptop, there is a gross shortage of lithium in the at least 3 orders of magnatude. Prices could soar so high it isn't funny.
Plus, even though part of a lithium battery is recyclable, it isn't 100% recyclable as there is a consumption cost to them. They loose 10% of their abilities when not being used and at least 20% each ear of use. So if you get 40 miles per charge today, in 3 years you will be lucky to get 16 miles.

Quite true. Did you fail high school chemistry?
Lithium in air with not very much heat...gets worse if you add water or quantity. Wouldn't want to carry it onto an airliner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwv7egAz71M&NR=1


Given our current and near future technolgoy I agree that we will be using fossel fuels in 2050. The composition might vary though. As our current formulas are over 100 years old and not the most efficient. Might add some nitro and other additives to give a gallon a lot more boost.
Go ahead, pineer the fad with your money.
So much BS in the auto business it isn't funny.
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I hope there as not nearly as much BS as there is in all of your posts LOL

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in this time of high unemployment, over-reliance on foriegn oil and carbon emission causing climate-change investing in renewable energy, eg wind solar geothermal etc. makes good sense
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On 27/12/2009 6:54 PM, raamman wrote:

Good, then you buy it. Be first in line for a Volt.
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your reading comprehension appears to be less than zero. care to indulge us with the path your logic took to go from my post to your reply ?
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