Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota

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The Insight's electric motor provides 13 HP compared to 67 HP for the Prius. That has a major impact on city driving with regenerative braking less able to recover energy while stopping.
The original Insight used aluminum extensively to lower weight and improve crashworthiness.
-- Ron
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I think you have the wrong newsgroup; the Hummer group is down the hall.
--
It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to America.

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Yes Tommy, People do, in spite of your obvious hybrid misinformation and disgust for anything different than what you have. you have posted 2 vague accusations now, post some facts and, please don't post that tired urban legend about the nickel mines in Canada that were cleaned up 10 years before the Hybrid was introduced

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thus spoke the green taliban :(
CO2 MUST be cut by 80% by 2050 yet even green experts say its only higher than the 14th C by 30% - WTF?

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Ttoommy wrote:

Those are percentages of two different things, in much the same way that the debt and the deficit are different.
The 80% cut by 2050 refers to CO2 emissions. Globally, we're currently emitting on the order of 30 billion tonnes of CO2 annually.
The 30% increase refers to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, currently 387 ppmv, or about 3 trillion tonnes.
Cutting emissions by 80% by 2050 would mean that atmospheric CO2 levels should peak at around 450 to 500 ppmv, or about 60-80% higher than pre-industrial levels.

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Back when the redesigned 2004 Prius came out in fall 2003, I remember commenting on how the new Prius looked like the existing Honda Insight and the existing Toyota Prius had a baby that was bigger than either of the parents... So the current NHW20 Prius looks a lot like both the older NHW11 Prius and the original Honda Insight. So it's no surprise to me that the newly redesigned Honda Insight looks a lot like the Prius (especially since the aerodynamic designs are so similar).
The current Honda Civic Hybrid II is able to move short distances without turning on the gasoline engine. The older HCH (pre 2006 or so) had the same IMA setup as the previous Honda Insight.
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Yes, going to be interesting...
Cathy

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On Mar 30, 10:36am, "rtc" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]

This weekend I rented a 2009 Prius (Basic) to validate what since now I have had only read about.
I drove the Prius on suburban roads and for a brief time I tested it out on a 6 lane super highway. At high speeds the cabin was a slightly noisy .
The joystick-parking button drive mode gave me strangest feeling of all the really big differences - rather than have a different position for each drive mode (R,N,D,P,B) the joystick position normally is in only one position and moving the joystick in a particular direction (up, down, right, left) selects a drive mode. However, in order for that drive mode to be selected the driver must press the brake pedal (like a manual transmission clutch) to change the drive mode - and to park one needs to press a park button. The motion was not easy for me and there was no positive feel with the joystick - so I found myself constantly looking at the LED display to determine if I was in the correct drive mode.
Using the energy display, it was fairly easy to get the Prius to average between 45 to 55 mpg. However, the energy displays position in the center of the car is somewhat distracting. I would have preferred an *energy* display next to speedometer display (one led for battery recharging, one led for gasoline engine drive on, one led for eletric engine drive on, and a real-time Led MPG gauge )
The Prius really shines when it comes to maximizing fuel efficiency. The hints that I had read on hypermiling with the Prius came in handy - e.g. tapping the brake pedals before an anticipate stop helps initiate the battery recharging earlier than if the computer were to initiate it. Also getting the car up to speed quickly and then letting go of the accelerator to cut off the gas engine and then slightly pressing the accelerator to try to the electric motor to maintain the speed on a downhill or flat road helps push up the MPGs. However, for sudden short stop-and-go traffic and driving uphill - the Prius mpg suffered (also I've read that the Prius MPG also suffers when it is really cold. ISTM the Prius can get over 50 mpg when it is driven in warm dry weather over relatively flat roads over long distances with few stops ). If one is driving in very agressive highway environment or short trips that are have a great deal of stop and go traffic - it would be difficult for a driver to modify their driving to get the optimum fuel efficiency from the 2009 Prius.
I found the fuel gauge is not a linear indicator of how much fuel is left in the Prius. The Prius is suppose to have a 11.9 gallon fuel *bladder" ; when the Prius is down to its last 3 gallons a low fuel gauge warning light is suppose to go on. The fuel gauge has 10 led segments when it was down to three led segments I filled it with 3 gallons - but it only raised the fuel gauge to 4 led segments - so then I filled it with 3 more gallons which then increase the fuel gauge setting to 10 led segments (initially when I got car from the rental office - the fuel gauge was at five led segments (1/2 way full marker) .
The sunlight had a tendency to washout the LCD screen it would have been easier to read if the LCD screen had some sun visor over top of it.
Not all of the buttons and dials on the dashboard and on the steering wheel don't light up (at night) making them harder to find them in the dark. . The volume dial and the seek button are too close to each other.
If the back of front passenger seat was shorter or if there was slightty more distant between the backseat and the front passenger seat one might be able to take off the front passenger seat head rest and push the back of the front passenger seat all the way down (like the honda fit) and fit a very long object in the passenger side... With the front passenger seat pushed forward all the way and the rear seats folded down - the maximum cargo length is abou 6.25 feet. maximum cargo height is about 2.4 feet and the maximum cargo width is from 3.25 to 4.feet.
The Prius isn't a very fast car - so merging into a superhighway is its weakest trait.
I've also read that the Prius' low rolling friction tires don't perform that well in rain and snow....
Lastly, the Prius as well as probably all non SUV hybrids doesn't have any towing capacity. The total weight of the driver, passengers, and cargo in the Prius (Vehicle Capacity Weight) is not suppose to be over 810 pounds.
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In article
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Considering that there is only one drive mode, you're always in the correct drive mode. "B" is not a drive mode, and shouldn't be used except when driving on a long downhill. It took me less than an hour for that selector to become second nature.

One can change the display to something else, or even turn it off completely.

That's coming with the 2010 model. In fact, the center display screen will be gone completely unless you have the GPS navigation package.

True, but it still gets better mileage under those conditions than other cars do, because their mileage suffers as well.

As do all internal-combustion engines.

True, but the same is also true of other cars.

That's true of all gas gauges, but the bladder makes it more so with the Prius; the bladder is in only the US versions of the car, BTW.

The bladder will be gone with the 2010 model.

That's because the LCD screen is polarized for left-hand drive. It's been a sore point for many drivers who have right-and drive models.

Actually, all the ones on the steering wheel do, but they're not bright enough. The ones on the dash that don't light up are rarely used.

I've never had a problem with that; the car can go up to over 100 MPH, and I've found acceleration to be very brisk. It's not a muscle car, but it is peppy enough to not have any merge problems. I'm up to highway speed by the time I reach the end of the onramp, before I am in the merge lane.
--
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thanks for replying to my posting it was very informative.

hmm... considering that CVT and hybrids are the wave of the future - I hope all this becomes second nature to me soon...

True But -- I found myself constantly glancing at the energy display to see how I could drive more efficiently. I suppose as one racks up more experience with the Prius, there is no need to view energy display.

Even so - I really wish the Prius had an an accurate 3/4 1/2 and 1/4 mark indicators on the gasoline gauge.
Another cool software option might be an overall Consumption Screen that would show the consumption of gas and the mileage achieved since the last gas fill up so you could ask whether it was really worth it to fill up with premium gas?.

What didn't light up that I would have really like to have lite up at night: the power side mirror control buttons on the driver's door, the dial controlling the air vents (maybe green glow-in-the-dark plastic dials?) , the horn button on the steering wheel.
Where I would have liked led lights - inside the driver's center console compartment (to identify where that plug is ), I would have also like more preset buttons for the radio on the touch screen radio control panel -
If I had more time with the prius I would have like to study the climate control more.

my experience.... When merging into I-270 ( a maryland super highway) there was a dozen vehicles going at 65 miles per hour all driving with about three car lengths between each of them - When accelerating the Prius up to 60 to 65 miles per hour on the merging lane to parallel to the right lane it seems that some vehicles these were *speeding up* just to try to make it more difficult for the prius to merge into the right lane ..
The owner manual warned not to drive faster than 85mph which is the maximum speed the car's tires are rated for.

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In article <0bad91d1-c240-454f-9b87-c1d77851e028
says...

The Prius shifter is neither a CVT nor a hybrid thing... it's a Prius thing.

I use the energy/consumption display all the time, and it's no more of a distraction than any other gauge. All it requires is an occasional glance, which is no different than checking your mirrors.

The consumption screen shows MPG since last reset, and miles since last fill-up. If you hit [Reset] at each fill-up, then you'll have your overall MPG for the last tank.

Filling up with premium will not gain you anything, except for a lighter wallet.
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On Apr 17, 5:03pm, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

The 2004-2005 NWH20 Prius will reset the Consumption Screen odometer/MPG at each fillup (more than about 3 gallons) automatically (after one full revolution of the wheel?), or if you manually hit the Reset button.
The 2006-2009 NHW20 Prius will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer at each fillup automatically (same conditions as 2004- 2005). The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG will reset if you manually hit the Reset button. (The cumulative MPG will only reset if you press the Reset button.)

You have 12 presets for FM and 6 presets for AM. How many more would you like?

That's the speed rating of the temporary spare tire. Stock Goodyear Integrity tires are S-rated, which is for sustained speeds up to 112mph (which is faster than the Prius can actually go).
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The 2004-2005 NWH20 Prius will reset the Consumption Screen odometer/MPG at each fillup (more than about 3 gallons) automatically (after one full revolution of the wheel?), or if you manually hit the Reset button.
The 2006-2009 NHW20 Prius will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer at each fillup automatically (same conditions as 2004- 2005). The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG will reset if you manually hit the Reset button. (The cumulative MPG will only reset if you press the Reset button.)
I have a 2005. If I read you correctly a later model would let me accumulate a lifetime mileage figure by not hitting the reset button but still let me see the number of miles on each tank. I could, therefore, reset my trip odometer at the same time I reset my cumulative mpg and get cumulative mileage figures for much longer periods like, for example, the 5000 miles between oil changes. Right?
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That is theoretically true, but I have my doubts about how reliably this would be calculated. Does anyone have information on exactly how the calculation is done?
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On Apr 17, 5:03pm, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I do recommend reading: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut12.shtm US Federal Trade Commission's Facts for Consumers - "The Low-Down on High Octane Gasoline"
You should use whatever the owner's manual recommends. (For a US Prius, that's 87 octane (regular), under the (R+M)/2 method (as posted at the gas pumps), which is about 91 octane under the RON method.) If your car is experiencing engine knock, then you should go up a grade in octane. (But if your Prius IS knocking, something is wrong with it!)
(To note, Prius in the UK use 95 octane (RON method, which equates to about 91 octane ((R+M)/2 method) in the US).)
Octane is a measure of the fuel's ability to resist pre-detonation (or engine knock).
Higher octane gasoline doesn't mean that it is necessarily cleaner or better. "Premium" or "super" is a mis-nomer. All gasoline sold in the US must meet certain federal EPA clean-burning guidelines. However, some individual brands _may_ decide to put some extra cleaners or do extra refining in their higher-octane fuel (as I've heard of some brands advertising low-sulfur gasoline as only in their Premium line).
A higher octane gasoline actually has lower BTUs (energy content) than a lower octane gasoline, so the only way that you'd see better fuel economy by going up in octane is if you were previously using lower than recommended octane in your car...
In the Toyota Prius, using higher than recommended octane fuel is known to cause check engine lights with engine misfire codes, besides the expected lower fuel economy.
(Ethanol also has a lower BTU content than does gasoline, so you can expect to see slightly lower fuel economy using E10 fuel. The Prius is not a flex-fuel vehicle, so do not use E85 in it (unless you want check-engine lights and the potential for corroding out your fuel system!)
If you live in a high altitude area (like the Rocky Mountains) usually you can use the next octane level down from what is listed in the owner's manual because of the altitude/thin air with no ill effects (except if you come down from the altitude with a full tank!).
Reasons to use higher octane fuel: 1. Your owners manual calls for it 2. Your engine is knocking 3. It's the only way to get low-sulfur fuel in your area (sulfur will slowly poison your catalyst, making emissions worse over time) 4. You like spending extra money on gasoline
See also: Premium vs. Regular : http://cartalk.com/content/features/premium /
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In article
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Ummmmm.....actually, one needs press the brake pedal only to shift OUT of park.
Not sure what you THINK you had to do, but if you were pressing the brake pedal to shift from D to N or B, you were doing it wrong.
What else were you doing wrong?

I read that too--and yet, I went through 40K miles and two winters without a hint of problem. Go figure.
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wrote:

Not me. After the first 20K the tires were useless on ice and snow.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty schreef:

When I backup from my driveway I switch from R to D without even touching my brake. It works very smoothly. Only if you switch from N or P to any drive mode you have to press the brake pedal, just like any other automatic. Thibaud
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wrote:

I only had a 30 second review of the operations of the Prius from the rental agency - so initially what I knew was from the internet. Luckily - there was an owner's manual in glove compartment and I spent some time reading that on the second day I had the car. Renting a Prius was a great way to learn more about the it - I wish I could rent an Insight too ( but I don't think that opportunity will arise atleast not locally where I live).
I think user manual should have spent more time explaining their unique drive mode shifter - which I think was different enough from standard transmission systems to warrant more space in the user manual
However, even after reading the manual, I found that when I I was getting the car out of park I would occasionally shift it into drive when I meant to shift it into reverse. - and vice versa. It was only when I focus on the blue LED display that I could consistently do it right.

I'm not sure whether to believe or discount what I've been reading on the internet. However, it did freak me out and when it was raining last saturday - i didn't drive the prius.... I should have driven it in the rain maybe in a empty parking lot to test the braking in the rain - but I chickened out.
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In article <22dddcf7-29b0-4763-a96a-00951ae0c7b0
says...

I've driven the Prius with the stock Goodyear Integrity tires in torrential rain at highway speeds, as well as winding secondary roads, and never had a problem.
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