Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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In


Let's get our nomenclature correct: ;-)
Supercharger (Kompressor): belt driven Turbocharger: exhaust driven
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Philip® wrote:

Technically, Philip, they are both superchargers, since they supercharge the engine with combustion air. They can be either driven mechanically or by exhaust gas. For reference, I will quote the website to which you referred us all in the previous post. "The first exhaust-driven supercharger . . ."
Dan
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In

Obviously, this is 2003, not 1915. Go to a speed shop and using current vernacular, ask the counterman to show your a "supercharger." See what they hand you. LOL.
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Philip® wrote:

Again we have a US-centric view. Ask the same question in a speed shop almost anywhere else in the world and the counterperson will ask you which type you want.
Dan
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In

Ask Mercedes to describe a kompressor. I can't help if the rest of your world plays lose with the definitions. ;-)
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Philip® wrote:

From the MB C-Class e-brochure I cut the following information.
"supercharged four in the C230 Kompressor"
C230 KOMPRESSOR ENGINE Supercharged and intercooled for maximum responsiveness,the 1.8-litre four in the C230 Kompressor models makes a robust 189 hp and 192 lb-ft of torque. Variable valve timing endows it with an exceptionally broad powerband for quicker acceleration and better passing performance. Sport Sedans and Sedans is a 6-speed stick that features a close-ratio gearset to help ensure fast, clean shifts. It ’s also got an extra-aggressive first gear for added zip off the line.
Variable intake-valve timing. Roots-type rotary-piston supercharger with air-to-air intercooler.
This information proves part of what both of us are saying, ie a supercharger can be a mechanically driven Roots-type. It does not disprove what Huw and I have been saying, which that a "turbocharger" is also a supercharger.
Please refer to the following:
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/news/043001.html
Wherein it states: ""Turbocharging" is nothing more than the common phrase attached to the use of a turbine-driven centrifugal supercharger"
Just the first google hit I got.
Dan
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In

The link also shows (next paragraph) as a given that a "supercharger is mechanically driven" while a "turbocharger" is specifically turbine driven. It's of tangental interest that (mechanically driven) superchargers were previously known as "blowers" and that their origin back in the mid 1800's was to pump water. I do find disagreement in the link's assertion that turbochargers take no power to drive. The ever increasing exhaust back pressure from high boost pressures is a "loss." But up to that point, it's a net gain, obviously.
As a broad description, yes, both super-charge the intake air. But when you go to order parts, supercharger gets you a mechanically driven blower and turbocharger gets you a turbine driven blower. :-)
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On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:13:21 GMT

in their terminology is called "the riser". And stereo has become something lo-quality radio receiver with a CD or MC player.
Helar
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On this, the UK shares US terminology. No depends whether we call intercooling that or aftercooling or chargecooling though.
Huw
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In wrote> >

"We" use "intercooler". Intercoolers are exclusively associated with exhaust driven superchargers (more commonly known as turbochargers) for some reason that excapes me. ;-) Thinking about it.... a turbocharger is small but really needs a bulky intercooler and plumbing whereas the larger supercharger needs no intercooler because a supercharger imparts no heat (by comparison).
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wrote> >

Not correct. Neither turbo nor supercharger impart any significant heat to the air flow from mechanical parts. It is the act of compression which produces the heat. Quite an amazing rise in temperature really. Any form of gas compression will result in the same heat rise. Think of an air-conditioning system where the expansion causes cold and the compressor results in heat. From this example you can see that it works both ways i.e. that compression heats gas and expansion cools.
There is no significant difference in the air temperature increase from a turbo compared with a supercharger.
Huw
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. It is the act of

I should have mentioned the most obvious and topical example of compression heat which is, of course, the compression ignition engine LOL.
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In wrote

Hehehhe. But you didn't mention it because there is a substantial heat curve difference between compressing air to 8-10 psi and compressing air to the typcial 20:1 (what is that.... 350 psi?) found in most diesels.
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In wrote> >

Technically correct regarding compression. The turbocharger pump does experience a heating cycle that feeds on itself. With compressed air temperatures in the 250-350 degree range, the pump housing does retain heat until boost pressures subside. I have had the rude awakening of brushing up against the pump side of a turbocharger and .... I won't do it again! The issue with compressed hot air is that it is less dense than were it compressed and relatively cool.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html
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That's correct. Remeber PV=nRT? If the "P"ressure increases, so does the "T"emperature of a gas.

I think you mean if for the same pressure increase. However, a turbocharger typically reaches higher pressures.
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Philip® wrote:

Except for the heat of compression, which, if you overdrive the thing enough, is massive, but then again if you cram that much air in, cooling the air isn't going to be your biggest problem |>)))
Dan
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It's more common in turbochargers because usually the high pressures can be achieved more easily with them than with belt-driven superchargers. Typically, boost pressures up to 7PSI (typical for Roots or Lysholm superchargers) can make do without an intercooler, whereas over 15PSI practically mandate one (typical for turbochargers).
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In

Let us go back to 1915. The value of forcing air into an engine with an exhaust driven drive was known.... http://www.turbochargedpower.com/History.htm
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Irrelevant. We're talking practical, road-going vehicles.
DAS
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Au contraire, DAS. The highest performance example showcases the effectiveness of forced air charging.
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