ILX - any comments?

good analogy!

Reply to
jim beam
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'94 LX.

Reply to
cameo

You didn't address the fact that the CVT is offered with paddle shifters. If the shift points are invisible, what is a shifter for & why is it offered?

wow...after all the time engineers have spent smoothing out the shift points, almost to the point of invisibility.

I'm curious what shift-point-feel does for you, given that you're using an automatic transmission. Why not just get a manual transmission?

Reply to
Scott W

Some better than others, but haven't eliminated hysteresis, unfortunately.

Yup.

Reply to
News

how do you think hysteresis comes into it?

Reply to
jim beam

Especially at high commanded rates of change, up or down, a dynamic lag in relationship between commanded throttle setting and power output, up and down. Either a control system logic or physical drive system limitation.

Reply to
News

ok, understand. that's very common these days and a deliberate feature programmed into "fly-by-wire" throttles and is there regardless of transmission type. it drives me absolutely nuts. particularly when driving mountain roads.

it's there for two reasons:

  1. it helps with fuel economy.
  2. the manufacturer can cheap out more on the throttle body quality.

for the latter, if the throttle responded to every minute change in gas pedal, the number of commands the throttle would have to last could go up by as much as an order of magnitude. if you "smooth out" the command flow, the total number of commands drops and you can save maybe $50 on the price of your throttle body with a projected lifetime spec of say

10^5 operations instead of 10^6.
Reply to
jim beam

I dunno about that, a lot of modern electronic controls are more sensitive to time than to operations, MTTF and all. I assumed it was more along #1. But with Honda, I just dunno. My 1999 CL behaved much better after the tranny fluid was changed, for about a week, I had assumed it was programmed in, but apparently not. But my 2010 Accord, I just cannot quite figure what the deal is, but trying to accelerate from freeway cruise to freeway pass (or even change lanes) is very frustrating.

J.

Reply to
JRStern

Two years ago I had a new Honda transmission installed in my 02 Odyssey. Along with that came a new control computer.

I noticed right away exactly what you described, which is a behavior that did *not* exist prior to the replacement.

I seem to remember reading that this was Honda's effort to prolong the lifetime of these inherently shitty transmissions.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

the electronics are, but the actuators are not. and the throttle plate on "fly-by-wire" is driven by a stepper motor that most definitely has a limited life.

to be honest, it had never occurred to me that a manufacturer would do this, but driving a rental chevy hhr a few years back, "enlightened" me. the throttle delay on that thing, once you were above about 30mph, was absolutely ridiculous - nearly 2 seconds unless you put your foot down hard.

on the freeway, you end up treading to get it to react, then backing off to moderate the over-rev - a ridiculous situation. on mountain roads, you've either got to enter a curve "hot" because the revs will not recover on the other side, or you've got to go in so slow, you waste a bunch of gas having to re-speed on the exit. it's actually very dangerous.

but there are aftermarket re-programming kits for gm vehicles that allow you to zero out this stuff. but then you can't use cruise because the hysteresis built into /that/ part of the system hasn't been cracked yet and the cruise freaks out when it sees the motor responding "too fast". or it hadn't last time i looked.

Reply to
jim beam

sure, fewer shifts, thus longer life if you "smooth out" the input. f*ck driveability.

Reply to
jim beam

Hall-effect servo motors don't much care of they're holding position or changing position, but I dunno what the tech of these actuators really is, so I could just take your word for it.

Exactly.

And it can't be any good for the tranny, either, or even the engine mounts, or anything. I suppose Honda just assumes it's unpleasant and pointless enough you'll simply sell the car rather than do it until the drive train fails.

I just remember trying to follow someone in a BMW, which doesn't seem to have ANY of these problems at all. I felt like I was driving a clown car.

J.

Reply to
JRStern

So then, what kind of behavior and driveability will we get with the CVTS?

J.

Reply to
JRStern

stooopid replication of a traditional auto. either because honda usa are spending more money on "focus groups" and "marketing research" than they are on bothering to tell their customers how these transmissions are slightly different and how they're better. or because the oilcos are leaning on them to kill the inherent fuel economy that cvt otherwise affords. they don't make cvt's that behave this way in other markets, so why on earth should the usa market be any different?

Reply to
jim beam

bmw is a great case in point. full "fly-by-wire, but zero perceptible throttle response lag time - every manufacturer could have this if they wanted - it's simply a software choice and that in turn is a function of how much you're paying.

it's the perfect m.b.a-style product differentiation for zero hardware cost [because software is essentially free]. and it's a manufacturer win, consumer lose - pretty much any way you care to slice it.

Reply to
jim beam

remember when Honda built engines on which the valves needed adjusting every 30K miles, because Honda decided that was the best way to achieve the total package end goal?

They did so without apology. And everything they built worked supremely well for a long, long time.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

unfortunately, they're not lasting so long now. since zddp levels in motor oil have been so drastically reduced, the older hondas are feeling it bad. you used to be able to see hondas in junkyards with 300k - 400k on the clock, and cams and cylinder walls almost pristine. now, distressed cams are the norm, and cylinder walls look old mercedes diesels.

zddp reduced to save catalytic converters? that's odd, my oem honda cat lasted 20 years with high zddp just fine. my truck 25 years and one of the best emissions results i've ever seen. but now we have to reduce it? i smell a rort - just like the bogus toyota shakedown, i think this is back door subsidy to the domestic producers - cars that wear out quicker need to be replaced more often and thus boost sales.

Reply to
jim beam

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

that's why I stay away from automatics. even in traffic backups,I prefer stick shift. there's too much to go wrong with automatics. and they're BORING...

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Are Subaru CVTs made like this, too?

Reply to
cameo

Manuals are great till you hurt one of your feet.

Reply to
cameo

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