need advice on snow tires

Did you put your toyota in 4wd before attempting your test, memory serves that without locking in, the toyota runs in rwd unless locked in... As to the rest your making my point for me... AWD will outperform rwd (your toyota)...

"Corey Shuman" wrote

Actually - and you seem to have reading comprehension problems since you don't know that and I included it in my post specifically - the Highlander is AWD (just like my 330xi). The truck (a T100 SR5) is a 4x4 with auto- locking hubs, no need to stop and get out. My car doesn't slip at all going up our drive in Cle Elum (as long as it's not so deep to high-center), but neither the Highlander or T100 get up (in the same conditions) without slipping and spinning. They also won't go where they're pointed, won't stop at the bottom of the drive, won't go around corners without slipping or slewing that my 330xi does easily, etc., etc.

Let me assure you: snow tires are AT LEAST as much better than all-season tires in the snow as high-end summer tires (like Pilot PS2, Goodyear F1 GS-D3) are better on roads than all-seasons. Let me remind you of a couple of well-known saws: 1) the best performance upgrade is driver-training; 2) the 2nd best is better tires.

FloydR

Floyd- dont get testy, remeber, my main point was that an AWD or 4wd (usually SUV) will outperform a rear wheel drive. None of your vehicles listed are rear wheel drive. That said your assertion of tires is completely true, snow tires on an AWD will out perform "all seasons" on an AWD. This was never an issue. Look at the beginning-- "an 02 525 wagon...".

(Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from inside... ;), but if you have a decent 4wd you will be able to lock your center diff and split power between your front and rear... most toyota transfer cases (Exception made for Cruisers)act similar to AWD and you can end up with one wheel getting all power)

The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had issue. I agree that 90% of what a vehicle does is from the driver, thats not really an upgrade though. No one told Mike to have his wife go take driving lessons. She is making do with what she has at hand. Which is the core of my arguement. Your bimmer isnt a snow machine and your SUV isnt a track racer. Comparing the two is retarded... (no matter what tires you put on it.)

"Corey Shuman" wrote

Actually, most don't. Even many Toyotas don't.

And you are still wrong. "Perform" when related to automobiles doesn't mean just acceleration. Cornering and braking are just as important, and as I have said before - as have others - a snow-tire equipped car will outperform an all-season equipped one in at least those two areas.

Know what the difference that 4wd makes? It just means that you get stuck DEEPER in the woods. But without snow tires, an suv with awd/4wd won't even get to the woods.

FloydR

See, up to this point I was willing to listen to you. Now I know you're clueless. Thanks for clearing that up!

you tell 'em Floyd

Most SUV's are also just ill handling, front heavy FWD vehicles until there is wheel slip and then the other wheels try to help regain traction.

I'll take snows any day and continue to laugh at all the SUV's stuck in the ditch as i drive by because they completely loose control when they try to stop.

Last weeks black ice morning i saw 13 on my way to work and alot more tracks heading up the curb and into the ditch.

total agreement as always, Floyd

snipped-for-privacy@canada.com

First, drop the term snow tires. What you are looking for is "winter tires."

Winter tires do more than plow through snow. They also help on ice in ways that conventional snows can't. The reason ice is slippery is that a fine layer of water develops on the surface of the ice from the pressure of the tire (we're talking microscopic) and that works like tiny ball bearings. Tires like Blizzaks have tiny channels molded into the tread that suck that moisture away.

Second, the compound, the rubber that meets the road, stays pliable at low temps (freezing or below) and therefore grips better even on dry pavement. Summer "performance" tires have the traction of polished wood in those conditions.

And finally, all all-wheel/4-wheel drive systems are not created equal. For reason too long to go into here, I had to drive a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 with summer tires in snow. Well, it didn't go. At all. The all wheel drive system has open differentials (if you know what that means) so the wheel with the least traction slipped all to easily. Of course, with the summer tires there wasn't much traction to begin with. And the 3000GT didn't have much ground clearance either and the snow was several inches deep.

Jumping in here... you continue to flagrantly ignore the original point. That point being that *any* vehicle with dedicated winter tires on it is better than *any* vehicle with all-season (or worse summer) tires on it regardless of drive configuration (FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD).

The reason that this is true is because when you are driving in the snow, you don't just need to move the vehicle forward, but more importantly need to keep the damn thing on the road (steering) and also not slide into the car in front of you when trying to stop (braking). Getting it to move forward is actually the smallest of these 3 concerns.

So, we get back to the original question... what is better (safer) in the snow? A RWD car with the appropriate winter tires or an AWD/4WD with all-season tires. In (at least) two out of three performance categories (steering and braking) the winter tires make the difference. This is the reason that you see an inordinate number of SUVs in the ditch or against the guard-rail in bad weather. They go like crazy with those all-season tires, they just don't steer or stop quite so well.

And before you start telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about, let me say that I live in New Hampshire, where we get plenty of opportunities to drive in snow. I own a RWD BMW (325i), 2 FWD SAAB 900s (daughters' cars), an Explorer AWD and a Jeep Wrangler 4WD. The BMW and SAABs have real winter tires, the Explorer has all-seasons, and the Jeep has aggressive mud-terrain tires (actually just sold it).

The Jeep and Explorer are the best at getting going when it's slippery out, but hands down any of the cars (with snows) are better at steering and stopping than either the Jeep or Exploder. Actually I own 2 other RWD BMWs (540i and Z3) but I do not fit them with winter tires, so they do not venture out into the sloppy stuff.

I have several vehicles to drive in the winter. A 4x4 truck, a 325i and an old beater Pontiac Fiero GT. My number one pick for most of my winter driving is the Fiero (none of my vehicles have winter tires). The exception is when the snow on the road is more than 3-4 inches deep or my drive is drifted shut. Then the 4wd is picked. But it is much better to be able to stop and turn than to accellerate fast, so the cars are preffered if they can get out the drive. The truck does not turn very well at all especially when the t-case is locked in 4wd. When I do have to drive the truck in snow I leave it in 2wd unless I need the 4wd to get moving, its handling is effected that badly. Plus the 4wd drasticly reduces the feal for how slippery the road is, making it hard to tell when your in trouble untill it far to late to do anything about it.

Winter tires are great but here where I live in Ohio we just don't have enough days of snow covered roads to quite justify a set. The local govenment does a good job of clearing and salting the roads (I hate road salt). But the roads are usually clear within 1/2 day from the end of a storm.

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:01:20 -0500, "330xi@canada" top posted:

Nonsense. A few cars-based SUV's are like that, but most SUV's are primarily rear-drive truck-based machines.

Have you tried winter tires in recent years? They aren't the same as the old "snow tires" of days gone by. The softer compound and improved design characteristics make them actually perform better on dry roads than non-winter tires if the temps are low. So even if you don't get a ton of snow, it may be worth having a second set of tires for the cold months.

There is also some economy to be gained by having a second set of winter tires and wheels. Put the mileage on the thinner (generally cheaper) winter tires and save the treadwear on your more expensive performance winter tires for when it can be best utilized (warmer months). Of course if you're just using cheap all-season tires to begin with than the savings will be negligible.

OK, no flame war, but read what I said. The man will have no problems in all but extreme conditions with a 5-Series shod with snow tires and equipped with snow tires. For Pete's sake, remember that before the FWD revolution that went through Detroit, virtually all U.S. cars (and many Europeans) were RWD, nose heavy and w/o traction control and people still managed to make it through the winter. Heck, I had a nose-heavy '73 Mercury Capri 2600 that I drove on worn all-seasons through Chicago winters for years with little trouble. This vast superiority of an SUV is utter nonsense that people have proven for decades. Cut the crap, man.

And face it, the snow gets up to bumper level on your SUV, you are not going anywhere 4WD or no 4WD. You plow enough snow in front of you and it WILL stop you. Granted, this will happen with a 5-Series a lot faster than with an SUV.

Finally, most BMW's have near 50/50 weight distribution. It's something BMW designs for. Another reason for the titanium in the new in-line six. Keeps the nose light and the handling exceptional.