Mercedes, Not US, To Bail Out Chrysler

edward ohare wrote:


Well, in corporate finance as well as in the economy, decisions made 20 years ago DO come to fruition today.

One of his many mistakes. He did a great job of saving the company. Once it was healthy, he should have stepped aside and allowed the engineers to create and be competitive again, rather than hanging onto a survive on a shoestring mentality.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault#The_Renault_Nissan_Alliance_.282000.E2.80.93_.29
Although this is a Wikipedia reference it looks accurate. Alliance since 1999 with sharecross-holdings.
Carlos Ghosn was sent by Renault to turn Nissan around, which he did, so he got promoted to be boss of Renault as well.
DAS
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On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:26:38 -0000, "Dori A Schmetterling"

Agreed to March 27 1999. And you can see here
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date 990310&slug)48681
that DaimlerChrysler gave up on trying to get Nissan March 10 1999.
So Schrempp and Co were out of it before Ghosen and Co stepped in.

And Schrempp got put out to pasture.
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On Dec 3, 1:06 pm, edward ohare

Actually they had sold all their shares years earlier.

Well, they started in 1970 and used Mitsu products for what, 20+ years? Plus the Normal IL factory.

No they didn't. Colts were sold through 1994, 16 years after the Omni/ Horizon were introduced.

There was no hiatus. And the Colt was more the size of the Rabbit and Civic and Corolla FX, not the Fiesta. (I owned a Fiesta; it was smaller.)

The minivans offered the 3.0 sohc V6 from Mitsu long after Chrysler's 3.3 V6 was offered in them too. And the 2.5 V6 in Cirrus/Stratus, remember?

Well, again, from what I read, it was the Chrysler execs who convinced Daimler to tie up with Mitsu instead of Nissan.

Yep. For a while a wagon version of the mid-size was also planned instead of the sedan the Avenger became. The idea was Chrysler for sedans, Dodge for wagons and hatchbacks.

Imagine the mid-sizes on the Altima platform instead of a Lancer platform. The small on a Sentra instead of a Lancer. The Journey on a Murano platform instead of, you guess it, a Lancer.

Did you READ the Business Week quote?

Except for the Sebring, Avenger, Caliber, Compass, Patriot, Journey -- all on Mitsu platforms.
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wrote:

OK, then that disproves your point about how Chrysler wanted to be involved.

Time. As you observe above, they took their money out of Mitsubishi. And they sold their share of Diamond-Star. They were pulling out and Mercedes got them involved again.

I ***agree*** a car named "Colt" was sold later. I ***disagree*** the car named "Colt" sold after the Omni/Horizon introduction was in the same market segment as the Omni/Horizon. See above... "cut out Mitsubshi in that size class".
For example 77 Colt at a 92 inch wheelbase, 78 Horizon at 99 inches.

Think the Plymouth Champ style Colt. Remember the one with the twin stick trans?

It doesn't make sense that the guys who pulled away, who built their own cars and own engines for segments where they previously bought from Mitsubishi, and made money doing it, wanted to become mere vehicle distributors again.

You don't know Nissan would have done well under Schrempp. Gee, he might have turned all the Nissan cars into wagons and all the Infinitis into trucks!

Somebody's opinion that doesn't match up with the facts I see.

Uh, Lloyd, that's the point. Decisions to do these things were with Mercedes in charge.
Oh, and the Caliber... I checked a friend's today and the VIN starts with a 1, which I've only seen on US assembly of big three cars (Toyota, Nissan, etc NA assembly get a 4 first in the VIN) and the door decal says manufactured by Daimler Chrysler. So are you sure of the origin of this car?
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On Dec 6, 11:23 pm, edward ohare

How? It was the Chrysler folks who argued that DC should invest in Mitsu and not Nissan.

No, it was the Chrysler execs who argued for getting involved with Mitsu again.

Yes. Bigger than Fiesta.

They felt using Mitsu to develop small-car platforms was what they needed. Plus, they felt a presence in Asia was needed. The Mercedes folks favored a tie-in with Nissan, but the Chrysler folks favored one with Mitsu.

Some expert's objective opinion. You are hardly either an expert or objective.

And again, I remind you, it was the Chrysler folks who convinced DC to go with Mitsu.

The platform was developed by Mitsu. It's made in a Chrysler plant. Just like the Ford Taurus uses a platform Volvo helped develop, but it's made in a Ford plant. It's not a Mitsu car; it uses a Mitsu platform. You can really do a little research and find this out.
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wrote:

You don't know if I'm an expert, you don't know if I'm objective, and regardless I can point out that the opinion doesn't match with facts we know.

There were no "Chrysler folks". The company was being run by Mercedes folks.
But I'm objective. Give me a cite.

Since you already know, please enlighten me.
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On Dec 8, 12:40 pm, edward ohare

Actually it's pretty obvious you're neither an expert nor objective. And what you think are facts are not. Can you cite a source for your "facts"?

Wrong. This was still in the early days. Lots of Chrysler execs, including on the Board of Management.

"Both of Chrysler's current front drive car platforms are being replaced by Mitsubishi platforms,"
http://www.allpar.com/ed/2003/future-of-chrysler.html
"The fwd vehicle platform for such models as the 2007 Dodge Caliber, Jeep Compass and Chrysler Sebring originated at Mitsubishi."
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/FREE/60807008/1041/PHOTOS
"Chrysler offers two mid-size cars in the form of the Chrysler Sebring and Dodge Avenger, both based on the JS-platform, which was developed with Mitsubishi."
http://jalopnik.com/5062950/gm-vs-chrysler-product-lineup-fantasy-draft
"The new Sebring will be built on a Mitsubishi Lancer-derived platform, "
http://www.3autos.com/Spy-Shots-2007-Chrysler-Sebring /
"The Outlander is Mitsubishi's smallest SUV offering in North America. The compact crossover is built on the same platform as the Dodge Caliber and Chrysler Sebring -- the result of a partnership with Chrysler."
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mitsubishi.htm
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When it was "fashionable" for USA car companies to partner with non-USA car companies to fill particular model gaps in their lineups, GM got 10% of Isuzu (for the Light Utility Vehicle "LUV" truck to counter the Mazda and Mitsu small trucks of Ford and Chrysler, respectively), Ford got 10% of Mazda, and Chrysler got 10% of Mitsu. Don't forget the long-time European partner of Chrysler, The Rootes Group (which contributed the Plymouth Cricket sedan!
GM's agreement to sell the LUV trucks ended in the earlier 1980s when Isuzu established their own CAR and truck distribution network. Ford's involvement with Mazda is still operational as they have partnered with several late-model vehicles. Chrysler's involvement with Mitsu has seemed to end with the current mid-size platforms, vehicle-wise, but will continue for many years due to replacement parts issues for these vehicles. GM's still involved with Isuzu via the DuraMax diesels.
I know that Mitsu was a design partner in the new engines and also the platform the Sebring/Avenger is on, but that probably does not explain the styling of the Sebring (compared to the LH-era Chrysler products, the current Sebring is like taking the Forward Look 1955 Chrysler products and replacing them with the prior 1954 models--still functional and reasonably stylish, but not nearly as spiffy). The people I see driving the current Sebring sedans are people that would look good in the 1954 (and prior) Chryslers, rather than young families or utility-minded singles. Obviously, the styling was "Mercedes-ized", make that "Old Mercedes" as opposed to the swooopy newer art deco Mercedes sedans.
I somewhat suspect that Cerberus didn't fully realize that Daimler was selling them a lineup of vehicles that had few stars. Mercedes and all of their "stellar" engineering and cache has seemed to leave Cerberus with many lack-luster cars and a new line of great trucks. The new 300 looks good, but has that blocky "non-aero-friendly" shape. The Calibre is also too square in shape (I wonder how many really bought it for the tailgate boombox???) and a poor replacement for the Neon. Nitro??? why, other than to put enough product and volume into the plant to make it economically viable?
When Chrysler did the LH cars and subsequent vehicles, after the "round" Ram truck, they had good vehicles that came to market quicker than the normal industry time (3 years rather than 4-5) and sold well and MADE MONEY. The plants were running full steam three shifts while GM plants were being idled, or closed, or sold. Chrylser union employees got something like $10K EACH for their profit sharing bonus during that time. The "Golden Years" of Chrysler V2.0 when Chrysler put enough money into the bank that Kerkorian got jealous and wanted some in the form of greater dividends.
Still, though, these were some of Chrysler's best years for product and profits in their entire corporate history. Kind of like when Walter P. let another building owner build what they thought was the tallest building in New York . . . until he and his building maintenance people snuck into the upper part of The Chrysler Building and released the upper spire to make The Chrysler Building the tallest building . . . just as they had obviously planned to do all along.
I found the "press release" quite interesting! Congrats for your innovative efforts! In reality, IF Chrysler could do what is mentioned, with some upgrades for the newer safety standards and emissions, they would AGAIN have a winning group of vehicles! Perhaps, they could make the prior Eagle Vision into the Plymouth Fury it should have been? LOTS of possibilities!
In reality, if Chrysler could recreate the chemistry they had during those LH-era times, ld be a winning combination today! A winning combination that could also be "loaned" to GM. The "answers" to the immediate future lie in the Chrysler Corporation of the 1990s!!!!!
Regards,
C-BODY
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:39:35 -0500, Comments4u

You should be ashamed of yourself... Now I have to clean *another* keyboard. I'm going to get a water/coffee proof keyboard, this is getting to be too much trouble!
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"Joe Camel", eh?
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It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress

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Don't understand the maths
"...we expect the value of our 20% stake in Chrysler will eventually rise to zero!"
FALL to zero maybe?
DAS
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(Dori - it's satire)
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Bill Putney
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,,,,,, yes, but the math is probably stil correct.... rise to zero :-)
cheers guenter

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You mean from a minus value?
DAS
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Yes. BTW I notice that no one here appears to be a Monty Python fan :-(
cheers

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I am. What did I miss?
DAS
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..... the three Yorkshire men vis a vis who has the slowest Diesel. To wit
when discussing their hard times when young, while drinking Chateua le Chateaulai (or some such thing): 'now we had it tough, lived in the bottom of a lake, got up half hour before we went to bed and our father would slash into us with breadknifes if....) you get the drift. Reminiscent of the diesel of old discussion and how slow they were... :-)
I guess it's just me.... I seem to associate a lot with the Python group.
cheers

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I know this scene - saw it not that long ago on YouTube (my 11-yr-old loves Monty Python) but I didn't make the connection with reminiscing about old diesels (mine was slower than yours / I suffered more than you did...)
DAS
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**DO NOT TOPPOST!**
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:05:32 -0000, "Dori A Schmetterling"

*WOOSH*
Missed that one completely, didn't you!
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