Nitrogen in Tires

What do you folks know about using nitrogen instead of air in tires?

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Ha ha ha ha.
Unless you are flying a plane, forget it.
Hammo
On 19/1/07 11:39 PM, in article 4eWdnUZ8-cybIS3YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, "D.D. Palmer"

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     snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com "D.D. Palmer" writes:

Quite a lot, IIRC from a thread some months ago. Google could be your friend, if you'd let it.
--
Andrew Stephenson


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There have been numerous discussions about this. Conclusion: It won't hurt, but you'd be nuts to pay for it. Who's trying to sell it in your area? Pep Boys?
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Good morning. I know nitrogen is injected into those one cup coffee servings to help keep the coffee grounds fresh. The plastic container and foil lid wouldn't hold up to a vacuum seal. It's not the answer you're looking for I know, but I wanted to give you one example where it's benefit is undisputable. mark_
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Used in racing all the time; helps keep pressures consistent in spite of extreme temp changes.
I don't think you have to worry about the same extreme conditions in you passenger vehicle so I'm not too sure what you will gain.
What do you expect to gain?
--
Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"
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Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:

I use only nitrogen-13 in my tires and have to reinflate them every couple of minutes.
One tire dealer here advertises that they use "hybrid" nitrogen, which I take to mean regular 78% nitrogen, 20% oxygen air.
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The nitrogen molecules are larger than O2, so tires supposedly loose pressure from leaks much slower with pure nitrogen. Depends on how much more it costs as to whether it is worth it.
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On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:42:46 -0700, Mark A wrote:

I bought my own compressor...I don't care! ;)
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Hahahahaha, thanks for the laugh!
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OK, here is a quote from http://www.getnitrogen.org/sub.php?view=safer
"Oxygen molecules, which are smaller than nitrogen molecules, seep through three to four times faster. A tire filled with "plain old air" will lose 1.5 psi in less than a month; with nitrogen, this can take six months or longer."
BTW, they also say that the FAA requires that tires on all commercial aircraft be filled with nitrogen.
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This may be true but mind the source. They have a vested interest in selling nitrogen.

I'm sure that has to do with extreme temp changes and high altitude, things that your normal passenger car doesn't need to deal with... At least one would hope that to be true.
--
Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"
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Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:

True. But the largest retailer of tires in the U.S. provides that nitrogen at no extra cost. They don't do it just to be nice. They realize that the result is less warranty repairs due to under-inflation and deterioration. Unlike most tire store chains, Costco actually does honor the manufacturer's tire warranties.
I've heard good things about Les Schwab, but they don't have any stores in my area.
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On 20/1/07 1:52 PM, in article IZqdnYQw1sZjHizYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com,

This contradicts the physical law that state that the time required for effusion of gases is proportional to the square root of its molecular mass.
Hammo
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There is a lot of controversy about this, mostly on the theoretical side versus those who have tested it. But one thing to consider is the law of physics that you state (Grahams Law) only applies to gases go through a hole where no other gases are present. What we are discussing is how these molecules permeate through rubber, not in-between the tire and the rim (or other hole).
The EPA has apparently bought off on the idea in a newsletter:
"Nitrogen inflation systems help maintain tire pressure because nitrogen does not permeate through tires as readily as air does." http://www.granitestatecleancities.org/pdf/Spring_2005.pdf
Bridgestone apparently also agrees:
"While both nitrogen and oxygen can permeate rubber, nitrogen does it much more slowly. It might take six months to lose 2 psi with nitrogen, compared to just a month with air." http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/print_articles/Bridgestone_FirestoneCommercialTruckTires.pdf
I am not a scientist and have not conducted any studies myself. I am just reporting information that others have published.
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On 21/1/07 5:08 AM, in article Q7udnXSVE5cRxy_YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com,

Sorry, I can't agree with your assessment of how the law is used. If you want to determine partial pressures related to effusion, it can be calculated.
Permeate is different from effusion in what way?

Is this based on the "size" of the molecule? See above....

Can't open it.

It is more to do with a dry gas used to inflate the tyre. This has merit, and obvious advantages in the minor applications they mention. They are slim on facts, and use a slick advertising method to sell it.

Information or spin?
Hammo
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Permeate is moving through another molecular structure like rubber. Effusion is moving through a hole.
However, I don't really want to argue the theory. What I said is that the EPA and Bridgestone both repeated the assertion that nitrogen permeates rubber slower than oxygen. You can argue the theory all you want, but it would be a lot easier to just test it.
Bridgestone quoted some numbers in the link I posted, so maybe they did measure it (the loss of psi over time depending on whether the tire is filled with air or nitrogen).
"While both nitrogen and oxygen can permeate rubber, nitrogen does it much more slowly. It might take six months to lose 2 psi with nitrogen, compared to just a month with air." http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/03v8iss3/ra8.asp
If you have a problem with this, please contact Bridgestone..
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I don't trust information coming from any car company that sells sizzle instead of steak in their ads.
It's bad enough we have an entire section of the Sunday Tribune devoted to GM called 'GM Overdrive'. Where's the equivalent Toyota section? They don't need one. . . .
First rule of understanding advertising. Beware of anyone trying to sell you the sizzle instead of the steak. That usually means that they don't have any real steak to sell, just some ground-up tripe they're trying to make you think is steak.
Charles of Schaumburg.
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Bridgestone is a tire company, not a car company. The article was in Real Answers Magazine at the Bridgestone Truck Tire website.
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/03v8iss3/ra8.asp
The other post was from the EPA (Evenironmental Protection Agency) of the US Govt.
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On 21/1/07 6:51 PM, in article K_GdnTY2TOv7hi7YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com,

So they are the same. N2 and O2 are smaller than "rubber molecules" and will therefore be permeating / effusing through it (rubber).

Then you won't agree as you have stated you don't want to argue theory, just what you are told.
Feel free to test away, too.
Hammo
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