Toyota and some others got caught lying (inflating their horsepower ratings)

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"Seeman, who operates the Web sites, said he doesn't feel any differently about his Lexus SC 430 knowing that it was downgraded from 300 horsepower to 288. "I'm still going to tell people it's 300."" unquote:

And probably still going to lie about how reliable it is....

Reply to
Backyard Mechanic

There have also been cases where the manufacturer, American I believe, understated the horspower, to avoid high insurance costs and help sales.

Reply to
Al Bundy

from reading the site, it looks as if the test procedure was changed, they didn't lie about anything. Not sure though...its a little vague. I wish it said what was changed, it would be interesting. At least to me :)

Reply to
ShoeSaleman

Well one standard is that you have to use oil of the type recommended for the engine. Putting 10 weight oil in for a HP test is cheating if the engine as sold is supposed to use 30 weight.

Also, not running any accessories, such as an alternator for example isn't fair if you customers will need to do that to provide the juice for their sparks.

Oh yes, and another pesky rule is that the test has to be independently witnessed.

Reply to
SgtSilicon

They were not caught lying because they were not lying. The old standard was loose and subject to interpretation (read the words in your link), the new one is tighter.

Anyone who thinks anybody buys a Camry or Corolla on the basis of horsepower is simple minded and probably should not be allowed to go outside alone for their own safety.

Reply to
GLitwinski

What color is the sky in the fantasy world you live in?

Reply to
GLitwinski

In the end it's 0-60 and quarter mile times and seat of the pants feel that matter, not hp ratings. And those have changed none at all.

Reply to
GLitwinski

"Orrnje!" How's yours?

Arent you being a little touchy about this?

I agree it (HP) doesnt make a damn bit of difference... get a grip and a sense of humor.

Now... on the subject of Toy/Honda owners lying about their reliability... I been there, seen too much of it.

Reply to
Backyard Mechanic

There was no "lying" involved. Just different interpretations of the older procedure. The Japanese manufacturers were testing with non-standard intake and exhaust systems. The new procedures require you to use systems as restrictive as the ones actually used in the vehicles. You also have to use the recommended grade of fuel and lubricants. The new procedures did not seem to negatively affect US manufacturer's at all. The old procedure was supposed to reflect the "installed" horsepower, but not everything was spelled out exactly. Most American manufacturers adhered to the spirit of the procedures. The Japanese manufacturers were adhering to the exact wording. Nothing wrong with that, but it a typical Japanese thing. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten in a Japanese car and found it to be cramped, when, if you look at the interior measurements, it should be as large or larger than American and Europeans vehicles in the same class. The Japanese are very numbers oriented and do some weird things to make the numbers come out right - even if the reality is something else.

This is the second time the horsepower measurement procedures have changed in my memory. The first time was in the early 70s. Before that change, engines were tested with all the accessories (even water pumps) driven separately.

Ed

"ShoeSaleman" wrote in message news:hA3Sf.3061$ snipped-for-privacy@tornado.socal.rr.com...

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Reply to
C. E. White

----- Original Message ----- From: "GLitwinski" Newsgroups: alt.autos.gm,alt.autos.ford Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Toyota and some others got caught lying (inflating their horsepower ratings)

So why do Nissan and Toyota spend so much time telling me how much power their vehicles have? The press crapped all over the Ford 500 because it did not have enough "power," despite actually being faster than a Camry in 0-60 tests. Numbers do matter. Horsepower might not be the primary reason someone buys a Camry. but seeing claims that it has a more powerful engine than the immediate competitors might give you one more reason to pick the Camry. Or having the press dish a car because it does not have as much power as a Camry might convince you to not even look at the competitor (even if you really only want the 4 cylinder Camry). The inflated numbers fed the perception that the Japanese are better at building and designing cars. While I agree that Toyota was not "lying" about horsepower numbers, I am also certain that they knew that they were not measuring horsepower in the same way as most American manufacturers. They were taking advantage of a poorly defined portion of the procedure. While this might not have fooled you or me, it certainly was misleading for many people who assumed the horsepower numbers reflected the actual horsepower of the engine as installed in the car.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

The automotive press doesn't really care at all about the published power spec. They're all going to take the cars to New England Dragway and see what the cars will do with whatever fantasy number is under the hood. The numbers they compare are 0-60mph, 0-1320ft and 60-0mph.

The 2006 Camry LE with 2.4L I4 engine goes 0-60 just .3 secs slower than a

2006 Impala with the base 3.5L V6 engine. That Camry gets better fuel economy and costs less than the base Impala.

The automotive press notices things like that and says, "Why pay more?"

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Reply to
DH

Stated HP ratings do matter to many shoppers. So inflated ratings are a benefit to the seller.

Reply to
SgtSilicon

Reply to
SgtSilicon

Yeah, it all depends on what the definition of "is" is. Right. C'mon, that kind of crap is dishonest, especially a lot of the others aren't pulling it.

Reply to
SgtSilicon

I think many people buy it in part based on stated HP rating. If you are comparing vehicles that have somewhat similar cargo area, fuel economy or whatever the other factors are, then HP rating can be an important distinction for some.

Reply to
SgtSilicon

Right on Ed. It is very noticeable how prominent HP ratings are in advertising today. Darn near every TV commercial that comes on really makes a point about the HP. From luxury cars to sedans. "The new xxx HP yyyyyyyyyy..." I suppose those poor dumb auto companies that pay for the ads, and the ad companies are just too dumb to know that HP rating isn't important to buyers. Hehe.

Reply to
SgtSilicon

No, I think that most people test drive a car and let their seat of the pants tell them if the car is "peppy" enough or not. Anybody who buys on the basis of brochure hp ratings is...well, I don't know that such a person even exists for cars that are readily available for test driving...like Toyotas.

Reply to
GRL

All the men read at least a few car mags growing up and they think about

0-60 times and 1/4 mile times at least as much as they think about hp.

Very few of the women care about 0-60 times but, mostly, they don't care about the hp, either. I doubt that the women in the family have any idea what's under the hood on any of our cars. Well, they do know one's a "turbo" but I don't think they have any clue how it works. Or care. They'll still notice if a car doesn't move.

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Reply to
dh

Before or after the hp rating recomputatino, the base Camry has about 160 hp. I don't think Toyota stresses that in the brochures. The people that buy them do care whether it's quick enough to merge on the freeway but they're not taking it to New England Dragway, so they're not going to get excited about hp ratings.

At the "sensible sedan" end of the market, you're much more likely to find "34 mpg" has more appeal and 31 vs 34 mpg is more important to the buyers than 158 vs 16x hp.

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Reply to
dh

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