alternator circuit question



[snip]
Pondering, it could be a form of temperature compensation. In a Citroen, who knows ;-)
...Jim Thompson
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| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, exxos wrote:

Fun story, but not applicable to the original poster's '91 Acclaim -- not even a little bit. Also, "12v" automotive voltage regulators have set points of between 13.8 and 15.1 volts. A regulator with a set point of 12v would not charge the battery.
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I was suggesting that simple faults can make things look like sometime which they are not, and yes you are correct 12V wont charge the battery, the OP had alternator problems which im pretty sure I gave some suggestions towards a possible cure. 12V regulators do exsist, like my old car raised to around 13V via the resistance in the dash lamp, the OP has a valuable new view point on his problem to which I replied.
chris
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Hi D.S.,
We rigged it up like you said, and the thing works! I got a voltage regulator at Advance Auto from off your list, wired everything, and now there's 14 volts of charge on the battery.
Thank you for your help. It saved me from having to get another computer.
Regards,
Jon
Daniel J. Stern wrote:

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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Jon G. wrote:

Once again the forces of goodness and light triumph over the forces of rottenness and dark.

Which one did you wind up getting?

Did you have to put a resistor across the original field wires to keep the Check Engine light from coming on?

N/P, glad to help.
DS (Those who said this wouldn't work: Neener-neener-neener.)
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This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass a faulty computer, doesn't work. I put one on and it charged at 14 volts for about a day, then it jumped to 18 volts. I tried a different brand voltage regulator, and it did the same. The battery is boiling and smells like sulfur, the high beams went out, and I'm in the hole for 2 voltage regulators that work like junk.
I have a 7 watt 1.2 ohm ceramic resistor out of a TV set. It can only handle 2 amps. If I put it in series between the regulator and the alternator field, it should drop the voltage to the field by 3 volts. However, I think I need a heavier duty resistor.
Jon
Jon G. wrote:

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Jon, Surf back a few weeks, this problem has been addressed recently.
wrote:

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
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How about going to the local salvage yard and buying a used computer instead of putting yourself through all that other crap?

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On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Jon G. wrote:

*snip stupid ideas about TV resistors*
It's also quite possible that you installed the external regulators correctly, but your alternator's rotor is drawing excessive current, which fried the ECM's voltage regulator and has fried your two externals. Parts store alternator "testers" are very crude devices. I'd post the rotor current draw spec, but the manuals are in my office.
DS
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Jon G. wrote:

Of course it WORKS, but only if a bad regulator was the original problem.
You've most likely got a bad alternator rotor (shorting to ground) which causes an over-charge condition. The regulator is on the GROUND side of the rotor, so if the rotor is shorted to ground the regulator has absolutely zero effect on the charge current.
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The fellow who gave me this advice could rattle off several voltage regulator models, but he was in it to "close the hood" on more than a supposed fixit. He knows enough to be dangerous, and is convincing enough to come across as someone who knows what he's talking about. I'd advise anyone to steer clear of him. Below is his reply to my previous post:
====
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Jon G. wrote:
> I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the > battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's > nothing wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't > charge. I checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery, > and there is continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
The regulator is a part of the Single Board Engine Controller, yes.
> there are 4 connections on the alternator
> L1: direct to battery, positive > L2: direct to battery, negative > c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode > c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
What you are calling "logic" wires are the field wires.
> I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an > external voltage regulator.
<etc>
The way you plan to do it will not work.
Here is a fix that *will* work, without replacing the engine computer and without causing any additional problems:
First, pick one of the following regulators:
Regular normal electromechanical regulator: NAPA Echlin VR32
Extra heavy duty electromechanical regulator w/vibrationproof mount: NAPA Echlin VR34
Extra heavy duty electromechanical regulator w/vibrationproof mount and convenient external voltage adjustment screw: NAPA Echlin VR35, Standard-Bluestreak VR106
Transistorized regulator with no moving parts (no adjusting screw): Standard-Bluestreak VR101, Wells VR706 (the wells item is very inexpensive; it works but Wells doesn't make my favourite stuff)
Waterproof potted IC regulator with no moving parts (no adjusting screw): NAPA Echlin VR1001, Standard-Bluestreak VR128
Any of these regulators will have two terminals on it, one marked "IGN" and the other marked "FLD". (the VR1001 and VR128 have the "fld" terminal on the end of a short wire lead). The alternator gets the original C1 and C2 wires removed from its two field terminals (right next to each other, small studs with nuts retaining the two flag terminals).
The regulator IGN terminal gets 12V via the ignition switch, and the "FLD" terminal gets connected via a wire to one (either) of the field terminals on the alternator. The other field terminal on the alternator gets connected via a wire to ground. Run a ground wire -- 16ga is plenty -- between the regulator base and the battery negative terminal, and mount the regulator such that it won't rock 'n' roll around. At this point, your charging system will once again work fine. If you got the adjustable regulator, set it for 14.2v across the battery with the engine fully warmed up and ambient temperature above 50F.
If your "Check Engine" light comes on, put a resistor across the two original field wires C1 and C2 before securing these wires such that they can't ground out or get caught in any moving parts.
Close the hood; you're done.
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Jon G. wrote:

Sure, fine, whatever, Jon. It didn't work for you 'cause you failed to diagnose your problem correctly, but rather than do so, you'd rather futz around with TV resistors and other bubblegum-and-duct-tape fixes.
I've been here in this forum for well over a decade, and have owned a great many Mopars, and -- here's the fun part, Jon -- the external voltage regulator fix has worked for a great many people who took the time to diagnose their systems correctly and do the work right.
Your laziness is nobody's fault but your own.
Toodles,
DS
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I remember this post. Did you in fact follow his advice, and it caused problems...or did you follow his advice incorrectly and it caused problems?? I don't understand why you claim....a SCAM??? Did he in fact take money from your wallet?? Did you send him some cash in thanks for his advice??
I'm confused. 98% of the people here either 1.) have a problem that needs to be corrected, or 2.) give advice as to how to fix it. Arm chair trooubleshooting is not that easy, and I do not pass out information that I am unsure of. It is up to YOU whether or not the advice you take is sound. Not following the whole scam thing......
Sounds to me DJS is not to blame for giving out advice on a forum that will in fact do nothing to benefit him, but you for taking it, or taking it wrong.
Here's something you could try. Unfasten all of the electrical terminals in the charging system one by one, and then lick each one before reinstalling them. This will mysteriouly solve all your problems..........
Or you could just change the computer.
jest my $.02
Eightupman

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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Eightupman wrote:

Eightupman: Betchya a virtual beer that even if our cheapskate buddy Jon goes on www.car-part.com (searchable used auto parts nationwide) and finds a good used computer for a price he'll pay, his faulty alternator will cook the voltage regulator inside the new used computer in short order.
DS
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Always try to steer away from modifications and seek out the problem. By modifing an electrical system to work may be ok, but you never no where the broken part of the circuit is, it may be a loose or corroded wire that could cause other problems, But how can you bad mouth/insult someone on here that is trying to help you out, the people here can not see the vehicle, they try to give assisitance due to past experience or because thats the profession of the person, Maybe Mom needs to place a Haynes manual under your tree? any way Merry Xmas Glenn Beasley Chysler Tech

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I've been doing that repair since before your car was new, and it -does- work. It's saved many people hundreds of dollars in avoiding having to replace Power Modules, SMECs and SBECs because one little internal circuit gave up the ghost.
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wrote:

[snip]
You ignorance far exceeds the reference standard... you are hereby presented with a Burridge Award with Gold-Leaf Cluster, and a special addition for today, since it's Christmas, PLONK!
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
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Jon G. wrote:

And i see nothing wrong with his reply. he obviously works for a garage or NAPA , in either case his explanation looks valid... maybe you didn't understand all that you read. the Solid state one is what i would use.
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Jamie wrote:

Neither, nor. I just happen to have Echlin and BlueStreak catalogues next to my vehicle service manuals in my office.
DS
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His reply will work! You , on the other hand , do not work!

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