All the oil ran out of my new 2007 CR-V !!

Not surprised. Figured they would fix it rather than replace the engine or the car. The bad part about this is if there is failure at an inopportune time -- on a trip somewhere -- you are inconvenienced considerably.

It would be a real scandal if there were a lot of these, but this is the first one I've heard of in the five years or so I've been here. Of course it is most likely a failure of the seal itself, and it's a good bet Hyundai gets their seals from the same vendor, for the same reasons Honda buys from them.

Few dealers would want to exchange the entire car; I doubt the Hyundai dealers are as foolish as you suggest. (You wouldn't do that, would you?) Infancy failures are legion - that's why warranties exist, you know - and they are usually handled on the concept of the "FRU" (field replaceable unit). In this case the unit is the engine, because the whole car isn't riddled with defects. A new car would mean the customer is exposed to being the field tester for a whole new vehicle again, with the increased risk of failures that implies.

Mike

You notice he is in line to get a new engine under the Honda warranty, too? Hyundai isn't as stupid as you suggest; they are pretty smart people. They won't warranty something that is damaged through owner negligence, because it is spelled out in the warranty and that would be simply bad business. Leading car makers, including Honda and Toyota, have consistently given customers the benefit of the doubt and footed the bill for major failures that may be brought on by customer negligence. But that doesn't mean they are foolish about it.

Mike

"Michael Pardee" wrote in news:_Kmdnbo0q4smchzYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@sedona.net:

Actully, they're extremely rare. The problem is, even a 0.01% field failure rate is considered catastrophic due to the absolute numbers involved. Plus the bad publicity generated therefrom.

And the worse the perceived quality, often the better the warranty, in an attempt at putting peoples' minds at ease. Anybody remember NSU's rotaries?

The install new engines in the factory all the time.

If you are reasonably sure that it never actually ran bone dry, chances are that it really wasn't damaged. If they are offering to extend the bumper to bumper warranty and not just the engine internals, I would take the warranty, it would turn it into the cheapest to maintain car you could get.

I know, a lot of "if"s. You will need to decide based > The dealer (and Honda corporate) has come back with their latest offer...

Can you compare the vehicle MPG before and after the incident? If the MPG drops, that would be an indication of increased friction due to damage. Or it could be colder weather and longer warm up times. Either way, it is a possible data point.

Paul. Phoenix, AZ

The dealer doesn't work at the factory, and the factory uses machinery for most of the work.

But installing an engine should be doable by any competent mechanic. It takes time and work, but it isn't something new to the automotive world.

If there was damage from running dry, it should be apparent in the next month (the voice of sad experience!) I undertightened an oil filter when I was a kid and by the time the oil light came on - I was on the freeway - the damage was done. It was audible as a soft snare drum sound right away and progressed to a clear rod knock within a week or two. It seems the indium coating on the crank bearings is intolerant of being run dry :-(

The warranty sounds like a really good deal. If they replace the engine (or the car) and the tranny goes out at 70K miles without an extended warranty you are on your own. With the warranty, you are covered for engine damage and more. It's also a good deal for Honda, since it's "soft" money. Heck, at work we accepted 2 years of free tech support for a piece of equipment the mfr's contractor botched an upgrade on. A pretty good deal, since the support was worth $7500 per year! And it didn't cost the mfr any hard money. Life is good....

Mike

I have decided to accept the engine repair and the warranty. Here's why...

- The warranty is a full 7y/100k, not just on the engine. It is the Honda Care plan and includes roadside assistance, lodging if I am away from home, repair at any US dealership. It is bumper to bumper, but I assume that does not include standard wear items, like tires and brake shoes. (They are sending me the full contract.)

- The crankcase capacity is actually 5.3q. I thought it was 4.3. So at its worst moment, my engine had 1.3q left in it.

- I added oil quickly (2 miles, low speed) after the light blinked on. So assuming the light is working properly, and warns of low oil pressure, the pressure was not low for very long. The light never came on steady.

- I work near the dealer, so it is easy for me to take the car in again. If the car really runs fine for 7 years, I guess it was OK.

On the other hand... I am disappointed in how the dealer (Herb Chambers, Burlington MA) responded to this. The General Manager tried to call me once, and left a message. But he never called back again, despite my 3-4 phone messages to him plus a fax. The dealer should have jumped on this problem and done anything reasonable to satisfy the customer. All my substantial conversations were with American Honda Corp, and they were very responsive.

Thanks to this list for all the input.

Chuck Connell

-- My home page

Do you/did you plan to keep the car that long? I would maybe ask for 2 additional items - unlimited use of a comparable loaner car*, should the engine have a problem down the road when you are away from home or on a trip, and make the warranty transferrable to a future owner. Whatever you do, make dsure it is documented and you may want to have a lawyer look it over for you.

*By this I mean, another CRV or something larger, versus them giving you a clapped-out '93 Civic.

Dan D '07 Odyssey Slate Green Central NJ USA

You're getting the best of both worlds and is exactly the best decision that you could have made.

I would monitor consumption closely for the next few months. Traditionally, Honda engines consume virtually no oil between changes. There is a caveat here in that Honda considers consumption of up to a quart every thousand miles "acceptable" but this same consumption rate is very high in comparison to the normal Honda engine.

JT

Chuck C>

Yes, I have kept several cars for 10 years.

Chuck

Good idea. I will monitor both mpg (built in display) and oil use. I know what the previous mpg average was, as a basis for comparison.

Chuck

Correction to below... The General Manager had called me again, and left another message. I did not know this at the time I typed the below. We talked on the phone for 10-15 minutes. He offered to replace the car via his dealership, if I detect any problems with the engine, even if American Honda does not. He gave me his cell number and told me to call if anything develops. So this made me feel somewhat better about the experience.

Chuck

The overriding reason is that you really don't have much choice.

100k isn't long for a Honda. What if this defect caused the life of the engine to drop from 320k to 200k? That's well beyond your warranty, but it's a loss to you.

On the other hand, was there any damage done? Probably not. Was that a low oil level light, or a low oil pressure light? A low level light is an early warning. Reacting to a low level light as you did should result in no harm to the engine. A low pressure condition could cause some amount of damage to the motor, perhaps damage you will never see.

"Reasonable" doesn't include throwing away a new car at his expense, nor does it include casual return of phone calls if it has been indicated that the customer is after a resolution that isn't likely to occur. As others noted, the dealer is not in charge here, AMC is in control. You had "substantial" conversations with the people with the financial involvement.

Not a bad thing, really, but I would go for the 8 year 120,000 HondaCare warranty. It's retail value is only a couple of hundred more & Honda left you this negotiation room, so ask for it. (Eight years is new for 2007 models. Most people don't know it exists.)

HondaCare does not cover "wear". It technically covers parts that "break", so I would ask for special terms that "wear" of internal engine parts is in fact covered. That's the whole point of this exercise: concern over unusual wear caused by insufficient lubrication.

HondaCare warranties are transferrable, so it would be worth something to you later on.

I can't imagine what that damage would be. Oil starvation isn't exactly rare and the effects are well known.

Mike