Got my first chance to listen to out of town AM radio stations on the brand new Elantra tonight, or I almost did. When the engine is running there is a gawd awful amount of interference that wipes out all but strong, local stations. There is some alternator whine in there, but the big problem is a constant loud rolling sort of noise that has no engine speed component. The noise continues for about 15 seconds after stopping the engine, and then the noise goes away and the out of town AM stations can be heard. What in an Elantra runs for about 15 seconds after turning the engine off?
I guess I'm trying to find out if my experience is different than the other AM radio posts in this group; most of those have just said crummy performance without mentioning interference at all. So what say you all? Will Hyundai fix an interference problem, or will I get the "That's the way it is" story?
The Kenwood radio in the '04 has a real problem with fringe AM reception. I just discovered that if I set the cruise control, it causes a huge amount of noise on weak AM stations, but almost none if I have a strong signal. I know that the '05 has a different radio, but it sounds like it has similar issues.
I listened again this morning when things were nice and quiet, and this noise is DEFINATELY digital in nature. I'll check to see if maybe the cruise control is turned on and I just haven't realized it yet.
With the noise being digital in nature, it gives me hope that this is just something faulty (and therefore can be resolved) and not just the way things are.
I listened again this morning when things were nice and quiet, and this noise is DEFINATELY digital in nature. I'll check to see if maybe the cruise control is turned on and I just haven't realized it yet.
With the noise being digital in nature, it gives me hope that this is just something faulty (and therefore can be resolved) and not just the way things are.
Yes, the noise comes on when going from Acc to On, stays there while on, then goes away 10-15 seconds after going from On to Acc. Got any idea what this is???
Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting. And the 15 sec. delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a computer to go into "sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd suspect the PCM, TCM, the cruise module, and any other electronic module that is intelligent enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is turned off. If you're not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could locate and unplug the various modules trying to find the one that is affecting the radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that there's nothing to be done about this unless Hyundai engineers and introduces a fix.
Just to add some more...On the way home tonight I turned the cruise control on and off with no change in the noise level. Doesn't eliminate the cruise control but it would be different than Brian experienced if it is the cruise control.
Perhaps you all can try this experiment and tell me if what I am experiencing is true for ALL '05 Elantras, or if mine is somehow 'special'. Without starting the car, put the key in the accessory position. Select the AM band on your radio and tune to some station that in NOT local. In my case, I am in Rochester, NY and I am tuning a station in Buffalo, NY, a distance of around 70 miles. Once you have a station that you can hear reliably and is NOT local, move the key to the on position. Note whether you can still hear the distant station or whether it suddenly disappears or is covered by interference. If you get the interference, move the key back to the accessory position and see if the noise goes away in 10 or 15 seconds. If you do this test, please post the results here so all of us AM using Elantra owners can see the result.
I want very much to believe that Hyundai wouldn't allow a situation this obvious to be the norm, but I was wrong once before, so ...
.....tune to some station | that in NOT local. In my case, I am in Rochester, NY and I am tuning a | station in Buffalo, NY, a distance of around 70 miles. Once you have a | station that you can hear reliably and is NOT local, move the key to | the on position. Note whether you can still hear the distant station or | whether it suddenly disappears or is covered by interference. If you | get the interference, move the key back to the accessory position and | see if the noise goes away in 10 or 15 seconds. If you do this test, | please post the results here so all of us AM using Elantra owners can | see the result. | | I want very much to believe that Hyundai wouldn't allow a situation | this obvious to be the norm, but I was wrong once before, so ... |
AM radio has a poor signal-to-noise ratio. It's worse with distance from the transmitter, the station's radiated power, and time of day (many stations are required to greatly reduce power at night). I'm thinking of a couple of classic gremlins from what you've said -- classic in the sense that they've been standard issues with car radios for many decades. You're experiencing a bad ratio between the radio signal and the noise radiated by various components of the car -- I'm fairly sure that these devices are simply doing what they're supposed to do. I don't think that car makers have been paying adequate attention to signal isolation of their circuitry (my Hyundai's owner's manual sure implies this!). And today's car stereos' AM performance is pretty threadbare when compared with the magnificent capabilities of, let's say, a Delco in days of yore (when was "yore" anyway?).
I rented an Elantra recently, and I just can't remember the nature of its antenna. If it's got a standard whip these issues come to mind:
- Is the antenna extended completely or not? If it is the telescoping type and isn't all the way out, pull it out all the way.
- Is the antenna's base grounded? It's supposed to be. It is possible that the base is attached to the car's steel via rust. If so, scrape the rust away to bare metal and consider applying a coating such as electronic contact cleaner/preservative spray. Test the continuity first with an ordinary volt-ohm meter (disconnect the lead from the radio first!!!).
- Is the "hot" lead from the antenna connected?
Now, here's where it gets more fussy: Your hood may not be grounded. A standard fix for this is to connect the hood to the engine block or nearby body panel, etc, with a real ground strap. This is typically a braided flat cable similar to old-time battery negative cables. A decent car stereo shop should be able to take care of this for you.
Amateur radio people have been known to add ground straps to many body panels in order to get good quieting. These people are the real experts in this realm. Commercial radio people are usually knowledgeable about this, too, as are specialists in marine radio. You can go to any of them for assistance.
During the 50s and 60s, SAAB provided a lot of good information about noise suppression in their shop manuals to help amateur radio enthusiasts. Bosch also provided many specialized supression kits and discreet parts for many cars. The reason for this attention was due to SAAB's radiating high-intensity interference from the ignitions; these cars had 2-stroke engines, and needed a bit more spark to fire the gas mixture (which included oil in the gasoline). The coil wire was especially long, too, which made that wire more of a transmitting antenna than in most other cars. Thus, special care was needed to quiet down this brand.
I should have been more explicit about the cruise control problem. Turning it on doesn't add any significant noise. The noise starts when you set the speed. If I tap the clutch or brake to disengage the CC, the noise stops after ~3 seconds. I suspect that Hyundaitech is correct that it's the computer in the CC module that's causing this interference. As I mentioned earlier, this is only a problem on weak stations. With a strong signal, there is almost no perceptible noise.
"Brian Nystrom" wrote: > JohnInRochester wrote: > > hyundaitech wrote: > > > >>Brian's post about the cruise control is interesting. > And the 15 sec. > >>delay sounds like it's about the right delay for a > computer to go into > >>"sleep" mode, reducing it's power consumption. I'd > suspect the PCM, TCM, > >>the cruise module, and any other electronic module > that is intelligent> > >>enough to reduce consumption after the ignition is > turned off. If you're > >>not starting the car, if you wanted to go to the > trouble, you could locate > >>and unplug the various modules trying to find the one > that is affecting the > >>radio. Realistically, it's entirely possible that > there's nothing to be > >>done about this unless Hyundai engineers and > introduces a fix. > > > > > > Just to add some more...On the way home tonight I turned the > cruise > > control on and off with no change in the noise level. > Doesn't eliminate > > the cruise control but it would be different than Brian > experienced if > > it is the cruise control. > > I should have been more explicit about the cruise control > problem. > Turning it on doesn't add any significant noise. The noise > starts when > you set the speed. If I tap the clutch or brake to disengage > the CC, the > noise stops after ~3 seconds. I suspect that Hyundaitech is > correct that > it's the computer in the CC module that's causing this > interference. As > I mentioned earlier, this is only a problem on weak stations. > With a > strong signal, there is almost no perceptible noise.
I have the SAME problem with AM radio when I set the cruise control, I get a buzzing noise. Called the dealer, they are aware of the problem and will be replacing the system.
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Here's an update for the group about how my situation is working out.
Took the Elantra in to the local dealer so they could hear the problem. Ends up that ALL '05 Elantras with the H290 (CD) radio on their lot experience this problem. They replaced the radio to try to fix the problem; and it did get a little better, but certainly not anywhere close to all the other Hyundai models and every other Make/Model I've driven over the past couple of years (20+ different models due to frequent rental).
Ends up that the District Parts and Service Manager for Rochester was at the dealer today, so I went back for him to listen to and talk about the situation. He offered to pay up to $100 to have someone else address it (as long as I did all the work like selecting the service provider, paying for it, investing my time, etc.). I refused this offer for the reasons you'll see below. I asked specifically if the Hyundai factory was aware of this condition and he indicated that they must be since ALL the similar Elantras are that way. I then asked if Hyundai intended to address this in any way and he said no. I put in a call to Hyundai Consumer Affairs and learned that a District Manager is as far as you can go with Hyundai and that if he said something is Hyundai's position then that's what Hyundai the company stands behind. I asked specifically if that was what I should feel free to pass on to any that ask, and the customer affairs person said "It's a free country, do what you want".
This next part will be technical stuff about EMC/EMI, so skip this if you want...
Having worked as an EMC professional, I can say that Hyundai's apparent lack of interest in this is common to those that really DON'T understand EMC issues. I can only guess that the folks responsible for EMC at Hyundai either are unaware of what's going on in this model, or have had their decisions overridden by other authorities within Hyundai. I don't honestly believe that another EMC professional would experience this issue and decide to do NOTHING.
The nature of ALL EMC problems is that there are 3 component parts; a generator of energy, a coupling mechanism for the energy, and a receptor that is sensitive to the energy. In this case, the generator is what the local service guy called the "power controller." This is the thing I described earlier as running for approximately 15 seconds after the key is moved from On to Acc.
We don't know what the coupling mechanism is in this case, and THAT is what troubles me and should trouble Hyundai. There are two principal coupling modes for EMI; radiation and conduction. If the source of the EMI is a "power controller" and the coupling mode is conduction, then it is totally possible that ALL the modules on the car are receiving EMI polluted power. Given that, how do I know that any of the safety critical systems won't sustain an EMI induced failure at a critical (to my life) time. Technically, the same thing can apply to coupling via radiation, it's just that the sensitivities (or susceptibilities if you please) are usually a lot higher for radiated EMI.
So why not take the money offered for a radio fix? Because that's just what it would be, a radio fix. I'm concerned, and I think Hyundai should be concerned, about fixing the EMI problem and ALL of the real and possible effects.
At this point, if I understand Hyundai Consumer Affairs properly, there are no other avenues of addressing this problem, so the hopes of getting the EMI problem addressed are fading. My hope is that readers of my experiences with this issue will include this information in their car-buying decision. I can't tell you what impact this should have on your decisions. I can only say that my opinion of Hyundai quality and customer care aren't what they used to be. And while I'm hearing that EMI in my radio, I'll always be thinking "I wonder what that's doing to the rest of the car."
> > Here's an update for the group about how my situation is > working out. > > Took the Elantra in to the local dealer so they could hear the > problem. > Ends up that ALL '05 Elantras with the H290 (CD) radio on > their lot > experience this problem. They replaced the radio to try to fix > the > problem; and it did get a little better, but certainly not > anywhere > close to all the other Hyundai models and every other > Make/Model I've > driven over the past couple of years (20+ different models due > to > frequent rental). > > Ends up that the District Parts and Service Manager for > Rochester was > at the dealer today, so I went back for him to listen to and > talk about > the situation. He offered to pay up to $100 to have someone > else > address it (as long as I did all the work like selecting the > service > provider, paying for it, investing my time, etc.). I refused > this offer > for the reasons you'll see below. I asked specifically if the > Hyundai > factory was aware of this condition and he indicated that they > must be > since ALL the similar Elantras are that way. I then asked if > Hyundai > intended to address this in any way and he said no. I put in a > call to > Hyundai Consumer Affairs and learned that a District Manager > is as far > as you can go with Hyundai and that if he said something is > Hyundai's > position then that's what Hyundai the company stands behind. I > asked > specifically if that was what I should feel free to pass on to > any that > ask, and the customer affairs person said "It's a free > country, do what > you want". > > This next part will be technical stuff about EMC/EMI, so skip > this if > you want... > > Having worked as an EMC professional, I can say that Hyundai's > apparent > lack of interest in this is common to those that really DON'T > understand EMC issues. I can only guess that the folks > responsible for > EMC at Hyundai either are unaware of what's going on in this > model, or > have had their decisions overridden by other authorities > within > Hyundai. I don't honestly believe that another EMC > professional would > experience this issue and decide to do NOTHING. > > The nature of ALL EMC problems is that there are 3 component > parts; a > generator of energy, a coupling mechanism for the energy, and > a > receptor that is sensitive to the energy. In this case, the > generator > is what the local service guy called the "power controller." > This is > the thing I described earlier as running for approximately 15 > seconds > after the key is moved from On to Acc. > > We don't know what the coupling mechanism is in this case, and > THAT is > what troubles me and should trouble Hyundai. There are two > principal > coupling modes for EMI; radiation and conduction. If the > source of the > EMI is a "power controller" and the coupling mode is > conduction, then > it is totally possible that ALL the modules on the car are > receiving > EMI polluted power. Given that, how do I know that any of the > safety > critical systems won't sustain an EMI induced failure at a > critical (to > my life) time. Technically, the same thing can apply to > coupling via > radiation, it's just that the sensitivities (or > susceptibilities if you > please) are usually a lot higher for radiated EMI. > > So why not take the money offered for a radio fix? Because > that's just > what it would be, a radio fix. I'm concerned, and I think > Hyundai > should be concerned, about fixing the EMI problem and ALL of > the real > and possible effects. > > At this point, if I understand Hyundai Consumer Affairs > properly, there > are no other avenues of addressing this problem, so the hopes > of > getting the EMI problem addressed are fading. My hope is that > readers > of my experiences with this issue will include this > information in > their car-buying decision. I can't tell you what impact this > should > have on your decisions. I can only say that my opinion of > Hyundai > quality and customer care aren't what they used to be. And > while I'm > hearing that EMI in my radio, I'll always be thinking "I > wonder what > that's doing to the rest of the car." > > Regards to all.
Interesting reply, thank you!
The dealer told me they will replace the radio as this is a known problem. I will let them address it first by replacing the radio which I am guessing will do nothing to alleviate the issue - but I will post here again and let you know what happens. I am about 2 months away from my first service when they plan to replace the radio.
If the problem persists after they replace the radio, I will complain again and let you know what their response is here in Canada...
I'm really surprised at the response you got from Hyundai Consumer Affairs, as the one time I've needed to deal with them they were very helpful and accommodating. I would call back and speak with a different agent. If that doesn't work, demand to speak to their supervisor. Keep pushing your way up the chain until you reach someone that will work with you.
In this case, it's possible that there's little or nothing that can be done, since the nature of the problems is not fully known (at least to us). Unless there's a simple modification or bolt-on part that will fix the problem, it's not likely that Hyundai will do anything about it. They obviously can't recall vehicles to replace substantial portions of the electrical system.
While I understand your concerns about EMI, if it was a systemic problem, there would be rampant failures in the ECUs and other electronic components, plus I would expect static on FM radio, too. Since that's not the case, it seems more likely that the problem is confined to the AM radio. Most car audio companies just toss in a crappy AM section so the radio has one, without any real regard for signal sensitivity or sound quality. It would be interesting to see if the same problem occurred with a better quality AM tuner, if such a thing even exists anymore.
Since you have a background in EMC/EMI, perhaps you could suggest some shielding ideas that might reduce or eliminate the problem.
I've just been reading everyone's comments with great interest. I have a
2002 Santa Fe which I bought new. I have absolutely terrible AM reception and have been living with this problem since I had the car. Only one AM station (which is the biggest local station here in the Boston area) comes in clear and has no static whatsoever. However, the station I want to listen to, which is also far reaching, has ridiculous static. I only live
15 miles from Boston and EVERYONE else I know gets this station crystal clear in their cars. I finally brought it to my Hyundai dealer, they said they checked all connections and the radio seems to be working fine - when I showed them the terrible reception for myself, their only reply was they have had many complaints about AM reception in various Hyundai models and they're not sure what's causing the problem so there isn't anything they can do about it. They won't replace the radio free of charge because they say anything related to the radio was only covered under warranty for 3 yrs/36,000 miles, which has expired. I asked him directly if I go to a car stereo store and replace the whole unit (at my expense) will that fix the problem, he said not necessarily, the problem could even be the window antenna. He didn't seem too concerned. They even charged me $35.00 just to look at the radio at the dealer that day. He also said (as if this was going to make me feel better) a married couple came in and purchased 2 identical new Hyundais, I forget which model, and one has excellent radio reception and the other - terrible). I'm at my wit's end, all I want to do is listen to baseball games on the station I mentioned and talk radio on that same station and the season has begun and I am FRUSTRATED!! Any opinion out there - if I do replace the entire unit (AM-FM, CD/Cassette player), should that fix the problem in all likelihood? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Windshield antennas have a nasty way of being very unpredictable in their behavior. Given your situation, I'd try temporarily substituting a stainless steel whip antenna. Don't do anything to mount it until you know how it will work out, just plug in the antenna lead in place of the windshield antenna lead and hold the whip up outside the car close to where you would mount it. Sometimes grounding the base of the antenna makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't; try both to be sure. Note that some radios (mostly older ones at this point) also have a variable cap accessible through the front of the radio for tuning the radio front end/antenna combination. If your radio has this and it is grossly misadjusted, nothing else you do will make much difference.
I drove a 2004 Sante Fe in Arizona for 2 weeks last summer. I don't recall having any particular problems with the AM, other than there isn't much to listen to when you travel southeast from Tucson.
For those of you following along on the Elantra saga, the dealer simply doesn't get that the complaint is against the EMI situation, and that the radio is just the most accessible symptom. Anyway, they have now refused to list the problem on a recent service visit. Funny that they would do this, in that a refusal of this type is an automatic trigger to the start of the New York State lemon law process. Oh well, I guess it just fits the whole situation with this dealer.
"JohnInRochester" wrote: > 2002SantaFe wrote: > > A lot trimmed... > >
has anyone tried th ccrane company?s am radio antenna product that is suppose to enhance am radio reception to help the weak am reception on the elantra. My new elantra?s reception is awful and Hyundai says they can?t do anythink about it. The c crane co. internet site sells the antenna for $35. I assume a new antenna couldn?t affect any Hyundai warranties.
"Brian Nystrom" wrote: > chipsi wrote: > > > has anyone tried th ccrane company?s am radio antenna > product that is > > suppose to enhance am radio reception to help the weak am > reception on > > the elantra. My new elantra?s reception is awful and Hyundai > says they > > can?t do anythink about it. The c crane co. internet site > sells the > > antenna for $35. I assume a new antenna couldn?t affect any > Hyundai > > warranties. > > I don't think I want a 54" whip on my car.
crane says its am antenna is 24 inches collapsed and expands to 54 in.
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