Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds

Not to sound condescending or anything, but I am glad you chimed in, because on further reading, I thought it should be pointed out that a major factor in automatics traditionally getting worse MPG is the torque converter. The TC represents a "fluid coupling," whereas the manual tranny's clutch etc. are a mechanical linkage. Energy transmission losses are greater with the liquid linkage. As many of the pros here know. (I am just an amateur who works on her own car and reads like crazy to understand it.)

But this has changed somewhat with the advent of the "lock up torque converter."

Optimal gearing is still said to be a factor, though. Several other factors are said to play significant roles, as well. So my post did not do justice to why older automatic trannies were less efficient than manual trannies.

Sure.

Just sort of randomly, based on checking this a few times in the last several years, and using only the same engine size for a given model:

2007 Civic, same engine size, both five forward speeds: Manual = 26 MPG city, 34 MPG highway Auto = 25, 36 2007 Subaru Impreza (an all-wheel drive vehicle) Manual (5-speed) = 19, 26 Auto (4-speed) = 20, 25 2007 Nissan Sentra Manual (6-speed) = 24, 31 Auto (variable gear) = 25, 33 2007 Hyundai Elantra Manual (5-speed) = 24, 33 Auto (4-speed) = 25, 33 2007 Kia Rio Manual (5-speed) = 27, 32 Auto (4-speed) = 25, 35

From this survey, I think we could argue that newer automatic trannies seem to do better at highway speeds, even though it often has fewer gears. The lock up converter (used only at higher speeds) is the first area I would explore to explain most of this higher efficiency. I see the lockup converter started gaining in popularity around the late

1970s but ISTM only recently did all models start having them. I see the 1995 versions of the cars above never saw the autos beating the manuals for miles per gallon. Granted other improvements may have been implemented, like continuously variable transmissions (CVT).

The Sentra is interesting, since for the two versions I compared, the big difference is the variable gearing in the auto. It's the only model that beat the manual version in both city and highway.

Toyota OTOH seems to consistently have no models where the auto does better than the manual under city or highway conditions.

Again, just an amateur here.

My Chrysler 4 sp automatic, which came out in the early 90s, has lockup on the top 3 gears. In effect it has 7 gears. The fuel mileage is excellent.

Yep, I wish Toyota would have put that in as well. I a car as sophisticated as this one is, it should also be automatically driven. Tomes

You are rightly concerned about the batteries.

These 270 or so volt batteries have a list price in the $2500 range. They have 228 cells in series and only one needs to go bad to ruin your battery assembly. Newer models only use 201.6 volt batteries, ;)

Besides you have the $3400 list price for the inverter and $1100 for the generator module.

Though the warranty should do good, imagine getting hit with the prorated prices.

Think about all the dead weight you carry around, pollution issues (disposing of the battery), and then, having your system repaired in case of a failure. We all have heard the stories about a battery not charging, alternator issues etc with conventional cars. Think about a system many times more complex...

With all the problems fuel cells still have, I think hydrogen is the way to go.

Edw>>that's without any freaky driving techniques.

Yet, the individual cells can be replaced.

Yet, the technology has been proven and has been in use for over ten years (although not in the US during the first few years).

Why? Hydrogen is used to power fuel cells. And there is almost no infrastructure for fuel cells. Hydrogen has the problem that to make hydrogen, CO2 is generated, as well (i.e., using hyrdogen as a fuel still results in CO2 being produced).

Fuel cells have been used for year. In fact, the O2 tank that exploded on Apollo 13 when I was about four was used in two different types of fuel cells (mitochondria in the astronaut's bodies and the fuel cells that supplied electricity to the Aquarius and Odyssey).

Hydrogen can be produced pollution-free with solar cells. Solar array produces DC power. DC power is used to split water into H and O2. H is used in fuel cells or whatever. Heck, it burns nicely in internal combustion engines. Or externally in the Hindenburg. O2 is sold to NASA for their monkey business. What could be simpler? Alternative methods to produce energy are easy. All they require is our cleverness and industry. Tough part is the politics. Here in Houston the normal grocery-getter is an F-350 dually towing a boat. It is easy to hear its one passenger muttering about the high diesel prices to the clerk at HEB. The most gentle suggestion to this poor soul that perhaps a smaller vehicle might be in their enlightened self-interest and well.......you can imagine. We are talking about a driver who has a Ph.D. in engineering here. From Texas A&M. The best damn school on earth! Light rail, interurban, bike paths, golf cart trails, abundant plug-ins for the electric vehicles, efficient use of our rail freight system to keep the use of 18 wheelers to a minimum and a zillion other schemes (no hyperbole) will never come to fruition because we are too ignorant as a species. And too stubborn. On the topic of my 2003 Civic Si engine spinning too fast at 80mph: Is it possible and affordable to put a 6 speed in that little car? I'd be happier if its revs were closer to 2000 at 80 mph. Anyone have a referral for that project?

Just a short anecdote here...

I'm not sure what manufacturer introduced "lock up converters," but Studebaker began using its self designed automatic featuring a lock up converter for the 1950 model year.

My 1955 President, a hefty 4,200 lb sedan with 259 V8/DG-250 tranny achieved 21/28 mpg in real time road tests in that era. Not bad for a 4 bbl carb, auto and pretty good performance. My uncle used to really rub it in to Chevy/Ford owners...

In a lot of ways, we really haven't advanced much farther.

JT

Did you have a CAT on that Stude and run ethanol tainted gas?

"Grumpy AuContraire" wrote Elle wrote

Bravo. I read Wikipedia a few hours ago and I believe it confirms Studebaker was first c. 1949.

They did MPG tests back then? What is the history of fuel economy becoming important to car manufacturers?

Elle Who pumped gasoline as a summer job when it was 59 cents a gallon.

There were a few small models with small engines that were designed to be thrifty for just about as long as cars were built. It would be hard to answer your question definitively, because it would depend on how you defined it. Volkswagen used to boast about the 25 MPG Beetle (although the heavier, faster, more robust Volvo Amazon would also average 25). Models like the Nash Rambler (introduced in 1950) and Plymouth Valiant were designed with fuel economy as a significant factor. I'm sure that whenever there was a Depression or Recession, or gas rationing, fuel economy was used as a selling point...

Really? Have you priced out a fuel cell lately? And where do you buy hydrogen? Or for that matter, a car that burns hydrogen? Of course you can modify a piston engine to burn hydrogen, but I don't think you will get a cost advantage and it certainly won't be convenient.

The Honda and Toyota hybrids have been on the road long enough to prove the doomsayers wrong. Hybrid batteries are very reliable and it appears that they could easily last the life of the car in many or most cases. The batteries and other hybrid components have an 8 to 10 year warranty so they are all likely to last the life of the car for most owners. AFAIK, the warranty is not pro-rated.

I think it would be unable to maintain 80 mph at 2000 rpm. If it did, you might find that you wreck the engine pretty quick.

As others have pointed out, the Prius is larger than a Corolla so the comparison isn't completely fair. OTOH, a Civic Hybrid costs about $3000 more than a Civic EX and the 40 to 30 mpg comparison would be about right fro these two. So it could pay for itself and then some during the period you expect to own it.

As for your original questions:

Civic LX or EX model is worth considering. LX saves you about $2000 if you don't need a sunroof, alloy wheels or a fancy stereo.

Use Edwards and the manufacturer sites to do your research. Google is your friend.

I would shop any place that sells the cars. You can play them against each other to see who will give you the best price.

It's also fair to point out that there are Federal tax breaks available to those that buy hybrids. If those tax breaks are still in existence (and I believe they are), they greatly enhance the economy of these vehicles.

And by all means, use the fleet manager and the web site of the dealership. You can usually get better deals this way than by dealing with the snake on the sales floor...

on 5/16/2008 10:55 PM Gordon McGrew said the following:

It depends upon where the vehicle will be operated. On the DelMarVa peninsula you can probably ride from one end to the other in 5th gear on a 5 speed bicycle, except after stops. :-)

"Joe" ...

If one is stuck paying the AMT (alternative minimum tax), there is no break for them. Tomes

And you are delusional enough to think there is, or ever will be, enough solar power available to fuel all the cars onthe road? Then there is the issue of how much energy it takes to make the solar cells.....

Mental Health Care professionals call this "a statement posed as a question". What he meant to say was, "You, Sir, are completely delusional!" to which I am able to respond. This "question" is meant to confound. Emotionally challenged people pose their statements as questions in order to provide themselves "cover" from more intelligent, more aggressive or perhaps more nearly sane people. This is passive/aggressive behavior. I believe the most energy we need to expend as a species is the novel, creative human energy it will take to make our planet a garden instead of a garbage dump. I believe all humans are served poorly by their "leaders". I also believe that each person awakens each day with the intention of making their lives, and their children's lives, as prosperous, comfortable and happy as their circumstances allow. We'll be OK unless the nukes fly. Then it'll be 'They are on their way in and no one can bring them back. For the sake of our country and our way of life, I suggest you get the rest of SAC in after them. Otherwise, we will be totally destroyed by Red retaliation. My boys will give you the best kind of start, 1400 megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now. So let's get going. There's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.' Then he hung up. :)

Does that mean the Corolla or the Civic?