Gelling in Lexus Engines!

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, Steve Jacobs being of bellicose mind posted:

A LOT of the "information" ... and I use the term very loosely ... you find on the net and Usenet is rubbish propagated by a Looney school teacher and a merrily little band of malcontents who didn't change their oil APPROPRIATE to their driving conditions. Most made claims against Toyota only to find they could not produce oil service receipts with dates and mileages that met Toyota's bear minimum standards.

Change your oil when it turns black or at 5,000 mile intervals ... whichever comes first and you'll have no gelling/sludging.

bullshit, it is a known problem in 99-02 engines and toyota covers it. It happened to me and I got it covered so don't listen to this guy. It is explained on the lexus/toyota website.

Philip® wrote:

My obvious question is this: I own an '04. Do I need to worry about this? Are the '02's the youngest cars that have been around long enough to develop the problem or had Toyota made changes in design.

From read>bullshit, it is a known problem in 99-02 engines and toyota covers it. It

Ahhhh... I see I've uncovered another slacker on maintenance. Did you're service paperwork prove that you met even the minimum oil service intervals? Would you like to scan and post those lifetime service receipts? Toyota has liberalized the intial gelling policy and yet ... most don't qualify because of missing records or huge gaps in the oil service history. Read the fine print, JL. Keep in mind that out of 3.2 MILLION V6s produced in the years mentioned above, only 3,100 claimed gelling and even fewer qualified for the program. So ... that means 99+% didn't sludge.

Keep the oil clean and there will be no problem. Timely maintenance .. what a concept.

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, Steve Jacobs being of bellicose mind posted:

READ the new schedule in the Passport Service booklet. It has been revised because all the gelling uproar uncovered people going well beyond the maximum of 7,500 miles or 6 months. Go 5,000 miles or when the oil gets black ... whichever occurs first. If you want some extra measure of protection, run a synthetic oil such as Mobil1.

In news:c189vu$1fl3dv$ snipped-for-privacy@ID-89071.news.uni-berlin.de, msb being of bellicose mind posted:

Hahhahah. That's REALLY vague. When you read what was actually modified, you'll be amused.

You don't understand--most people think of their cars the same way they think of their TVs. Turn it on and use it, and don't think about it otherwise.

The people who got caught keeping their cars and not maintaining them and getting this problem have probably all switched over to "oh, I'll just lease for 3 years and then switch out; so I'll have a monthly payment for the rest of my life, big deal, at least I won't have any problems".

Me, I'll buy the car new and maintain it--and see it be a better car in

10 years than those people have in 3.

But hey, we're a disposable society, right? Just throw that $40K car away after 3 years, it's no good...

Because they're opportunists, out to make a buck.

The dealership is an independent business. They aren't an arm of the factory or the manufacturer.

Many dealerships offer products and services that directly contradict the owner's manual, even to the point of recommending that which the owner's manual says can cause damage to the vehicle. Why? To make money.

If the public perceives that gelling is a problem, then the obvious business decision is to sell them something they perceive that solves the problem. The problem may in fact not exist, but with a consumer, perception IS reality.

And in fact, if you're a dealership and you're NOT selling the anti-gelling products, then you risk the idiot customer assuming that you don't even know about this "problem"--and the idiot consumer walks away thinking the dealership is ignorant, when in fact the customer is ignorant.

So the business offers products and services that feed on the customer's ignorance, even if it makes the dealership look stupid to other, more knowledgeable, people.

But the knowledgeable people will likely ignore the anti-gelling products on the shelf, while the ignorant customer will notice the lack of anti-gelling products and not use that dealership. So the dealership loses nothing by selling the anti-gelling stuff, and gains the ignorant customer.

And the business *is* in business to be in business, after all.

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.usenetserver.com, Elmo P. Shagnasty being of bellicose mind posted:

Actually ... having been in the vehicle (medium duty, light duty trucks and cars busines and in one dealership for nearly 30 years combined, I DO understand quite well what people do and what people expect from their cars. Pay me a little every now and again or pay me a much larger LUMP SUM later on. That's how life goes.

Like yourself, I know the value of preventative maintenance. The Owners Book is only a sketchy minimum suggestion of what needs looking after. For example, Toyota suggests the automatic transmission never needs servicing in "normal use" in some of their cars but not in other cars ... let alone SUVs and trucks. What a crock! Since the drain plug only lets out 3-4 quarts out of 6.5 - 8 total, that means even the minimum ATF oil drain interval of 30k miles is stretching it. 15-20k is far enough in real world driving.

My last car is a prime example of 'our' thinking. Bought new a 1990 Prizm. Ran the wheels off of it, maintained it well, sold it to a friend for $1000 with 285,000 miles on the odometer and running great. Engine had Mobil1 in it from the 10k mile mark and was clean as a whistle with the valve cover removed.

Dear JL. From your favorite ClubLexus website a statement by Lexus/Toyota:

"We're eager to provide additional facts about our Engine Oil Maintenance Special Policy Adjustment and its provisions:

This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk.

We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of

1997-2001 Lexus ES 300s and RX 300s and are contacting them with a letter.

Lexus owners enjoy one of the best power train warranties in the automotive industry, but damage caused by improper maintenance is excluded from that coverage.

The Special Policy Assistance for owners of affected vehicles will reimburse them for repairs already completed for the effects of oil gelling. It goes one step further by protecting our customers who undergo engine problems related to oil gelling for up to a year following our letter. We're asking all of our customers who do ask for assistance under this program to at least show that they made a reasonable effort to follow a regular maintenance schedule.

This is not a recall or a special service campaign. It is meant solely to help the small number of our customers who have had or who may encounter engine problems directly resulting from lack of maintenance. The special assistance is offered for a limited time and is for covered expenses only.

It's obvious from the many maintenance-related postings in forums that confusion exists about the recommended frequency of oil changes for any vehicle. Lexus provides guidelines on oil changes to every customer who purchases a vehicle. More information on proper maintenance is available from every Lexus dealer. Or, you're welcome to call our customer assistance center at 1-888-654-6421. "

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Now ... JL. That you did your OWN oil services is not enough. Were the intervals APPROPRIATE for the driving conditions? Was there a mechancal condition in your engine (ie, coolant contaminating the oil) that contributed to sludging in your vehicle? Barring the mechanical failure, when you get sludge ... the intervals are not appropriate (too long). As for anti-gelling additives .... snake oil's been around for generations and people like to buy assurance.

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.usenetserver.com, Elmo P. Shagnasty being of bellicose mind posted:

Elmo ... well stated. You understand the retail / assurance game.

Yes. Absolutely.

The question is, under which method do I pay the LEAST? I think it's the "pay me a little every now and then". But then, that doesn't get me a shiny new toy every couple of years.

People will use any excuse to get themselves a new car. It'll never change the fact that they're paying out the wazoo for the privilege.

I have to grin, because Honda has finally recognized this to some degree. Their procedure for changing the trans fluid involves draining/filling/driving a few miles, do that three or four times, and you've done as good as you'll get. You can't drain all the fluid, so drain what you can and refill and drive for a few miles and do it all over again in order to get more of the old stuff out than a simple one-time drain and fill can get.

How often did you change the oil?

My 92 Civic, I used dino oil and changed it religiously every 3K miles. Same thing as you--at 120K miles, when I got rid of it, the engine was as clean as new. Even an oil analysis showed that, and recommended that I could easily extend the oil change interval.

Oil changes are cheap, cheap, cheap insurance. Those that say "oh, but you don't have to do it that often, and look at all the money you spend doing that" haven't done the math. Over 120K miles I spent an extra $400 on 3K intervals as compared to 5K intervals. That's a third of a penny extra per mile. I'm not worried about that in the least.

Like you said, pay that third of a penny extra per mile or pay a bunch of money--more than $400, MUCH more--every 50K or 100K miles.

In news: snipped-for-privacy@news.usenetserver.com, Elmo P. Shagnasty being of bellicose mind posted:

I did all the oil changes at 5,000 mile intervals. But let me add one other detail. The Prizm (and the Corolla) carried only THREE quarts of oil in the engine with a tiny filter. The car had a three speed auto and gearing had the motor spinning 3,000 rpm at 60 mph. Also, my driving area was San Diego, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Reno ... for the most part. So between the heat, small sump, sustained Interstate speeds, gearing, and A/C ... I rationalized the best oil was well deserved.

I never performed an oil analysis. But I do have a picture I took of the engine without valve cover just before selling the car. Time for a cam belt was the reason for the cover being off. Hondas have always been known for being geared a bit short too and are good candidates for short oil service frequencies and/or synthetic oils.

Absolutely agree.

Certainly NOT over the span of 120k miles.

Gee... what's a sludge-seized engine cost? $4000 to $6,500 depending? It is ONLY out of good public relations that Lexus/Toyota spread the cost of the neglectful owners across those who followed the appropriate maintenance schedule.

I hear you. Proper maintenance goes a long way. My station car ('91 Camry) has 238,000 miles and is running strong. My son uses it now. I replaced it with a '99 Camry XLE V6. This is still going strong with

87,000 miles. My family/luxury car is a '98 LS 400 with 61,000 miles. I expect that to go for about 300,000 miles. My dealer said that "just change the oil every 5000 and follow the guide, and you are good for 500,000 miles." I would love to see that.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

What about people buying a used 1997 - 2001 V6 Lexus/Toyota? Would frequent oil changes reverse any (minor) gelling that might have occurred? Or should one not take any chances on what the previous owner might have done with the vehicle because gelling is irreversible?

In news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m03.aol.com, Iona Camry being of bellicose mind posted:

For the umpteenth time .... when you perform oil servicing appropriate to your driving conditions, sludge/gelling will not occur (barring of course, a mechanical condition permitting coolant into the oil).

I think the problem is that Toyota now recommends oil changes every 7500 miles, which in my opinion is CRAZY. So you have people that wait till 7500 and then say "Oh I will do it next week" - and that drags onto 10,000 miles. I change my oil every 3k. This is on my ES330 (which hasnt hit 3k yet) and my 4 runner.