I've got a "99 Avalon with 17K miles (yes that's only 17K) that has the 3.0L engine that is prone to sludging. I do not see any signs of this problem yet. I change the oil regularly with Castrol 10w-30 which claims to have an anti-sludging additive (like other oils to now) . I did some research and found that the PCV system may be part of the problem, but no specific fixes. I would assume the PCV system should be checked regularly. Are there any TSBs or other fixes?
Change your oil every 3-5K or switch to Synthetic, and don't worry about it. I have 2000 Sienna with this engine, > 100K with ~4K oil change intervals. No sludge , no problems, Runs as smooth as the day I bought it. Without re-hashing something that has been beat to death around here, I concluded that these engines have problems only when abused. If you take proper care and change the oil on time, they are bullet proof. Personally, I'd switch to synthetic, and you'll never have to worry about it. And if Mike Hunt chimes in, ignore him, we already proved that he is full of shit with his fabricated stories.
Our good friend "ToMh" better tell Toyota that he found a 'cure' for their engines 'gelling' problem. They think it was caused by the new head design, according to what they said in their press when they extended the warranty, and changed the head basically back to the old head, on engines built after October of 2003. Toyota suggests synthetic oil and 5K oil changes in the current service manual LOL
Sure they made it better able to withstand abuse, but the original problem was still abuse and if you don't abuse it you won't have a problem. I do agree that there is a "problem" in that these engines don't do well if you forget to change the oil and 7.5K is too long if the conditions aren't good, or that gets stretched out. According to consumer reports, the vehicle's affected was statistically insignificant. Also Toyota only recommends regular non-synthetic oil. But they did drop the 7500 mile interval for normal driving, most certainly because of this sludge issue and the fact that almost no car fit there normal driving guidelines and people who waited that long usually waited longer and had problems. One last note, is nobody who ever had a problem, has yet to this date ever been able to prove regular oil changes. They all say it, but none could prove it.
Really? Then why did Toyota extend the warranty when cars serviced properly at Toyota dealers developed 'gelling?' Even Toyota eventually gave up on blaming owner negligence for 'gelling.' The only place one hears owner negligence as the cause of 'gelling' is from the Toyota loyalist in this NG. Toyota cut the legs from under the class action litigation shark lawyers by admitting the had a problem and issuing a warranty.
The real problem for Toyota owners that keep their gelling prone vehicles, is that the Toyota warranty authorizes their dealers to "Clean, repair or replace any engine exhibiting gelling."
Dealers get paid a good buck to clean engines in cars brought into their dealership. Owners are not told the engine was cleaned. The only hint is on the work order listing that says TSB number ###, completed no charge. What they are doing is essence is pushing off a repair or replacement until the eight year limit on the warranty expires for original owners and future buyers.
Buy the way the new head design, that led to the problem, was to improve emissions. What happened was oil was 'coking around the valves causing sludge to form. That is why synthetic oil is working as the 'cure.' ;)
This is were you are making shit up. No body has proved they "properly" maintained the vehicle's. You have no proof of this, Toyota's official line is that no vehical properly maintained has developed sludge. We called you on this before, yet you insist on repeating this BS, but then again most everything coming out of your sorry ass mouth is fabricated.
That may be your opinion and Indeed that was Toyotas position originally as well, but not after the issued a warranty. NO manufactured ever warrants for owner negligence. Read YOUR own warranty, negligence is not covered. By the way Toyota refer to their problem as "gelling," not sludge LOL
I don't want to agree with Mike on this...but...the fact remains that certain Toyota engines from certain years have a much much higher rate of problems with sludge than other engines, even other Toyota engines. It is unreasonable to suggest that only the owners of the sludge prone engines were negligent in changing oil. Something changed, and a problem developed. You (and Toyota) can hide behind the claim that no one who changed oil according to the maintenance schedule had a problem (and I don't think you or Toyota can prove that), but there was a problem. Initially Toyota did their best to cover it up and blame Customers. Only when the complaints starting making the news and class action lawsuits were on the horizon did Toyota decide to take care of their Customers.
There are a couple of other points that keep this issue from being as clear cut as you would like it to be. In the 80's Toyotas had oil change intervals as long as 10,0000 miles - my SO had a late 80's Camry, and She still believes that 10,000 miles is often enough (I don't). The oil change interval for the sludge prone engines was 7500 miles for normal service and
5000 miles for severe service - but Toyota did a poor job of defining what is severe service and what is normal service. Furthermore similar Toyota engines in European models had much longer oil change intervals. Perhaps European oil is better, or maybe Toyota did not do sufficient testing in the cold climates with the available US oils. Something was definitely missed. And clearly, Toyota "fixed" the problem, because no one is claiming recent Toyota engines are sludge prone. Toyota knows what was changed, but they aren't telling. My personal pet theory is that Toyota reduced the compression ring tension too much (to improve fuel economy) and this led to excessive blowby - but it is only a theory and I certainly can't prove it (and won't try to).
I actually agree that if the owners of the sludge prone engines had changes their oil at the appropriate interval and used good quality oil, the engines were unlikely to develop sludge. However, I think it is unprovabale that "no vehicle properly maintained has developed sludge." Unlikely yes, impossible - no. There are certainly a large number of people who claim they changed the oil per the schedule and had engines that developed sludge (many claim they have the receipts to prove it). Toyota initially set the bar for proof so high that most people could not meet it. I change my own oil and record the changes in my log book. I think, at least initially Toyota, would not have considered that sufficient proof since I didn't have receipts from an oil change place (or a dealer). What percentage of people actually keep such receipts? No one in my family does. My Mother now has her oil changed by a local garage, and if pressed, I suspect we could have the owner dig out proof for her but I am not sure even that would be sufficient. However, I have access to scanners, printers, and receipt printing equipment and if needed I could generate some damn fine cash receipts.
To me, Toyota clearly screwed the pooch on the whole sludge problem. It is not the first time they made a misstep, and probably won't be the last. However what Toyota could get away with when they had 5% of the US market and there was no Internet, won't be so easy to hide when they have 15% to
20% of the US market and lots of Internet savvy Consumers ready to make a stink. A tenth of a percent of 240,000 Customers is only 240 people. Now that Toyota is selling close to 3 million cars (or more) per year in the US, a problem that only affect one tenth of a percent of Toyotas, will affect over ten times as many people, and if the problem only develops after a period of a couple of years before it is diagnosed, then 10,000 or 20,000 people might be affect. This many people complaining is more than a blip on the radar.
I find it strange that Toyota doesn't have any published oil performance specifications like GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen do.
It's like they just take the word of API and ILLSAC that their meager specifications are all that's needed to avoid trouble.
How often do people verify that the oil they purchase meets these manufacturer's specs? People who actually make sure that the oil is API certified, of the correct viscosity, and correct service rating are way ahead of the game. Have you ever actually seen a copy of the Ford, GM, BMW, Honda, et al specs? The numbers are on the oil container, but what do the specs actually say?
Meager specifications? I disagree. Vehicle manufacturers are heavily involved in the drafting of these specifications. If Toyota is not comfortable with the industry standard specs then they should make that clear. If you are not comfortable buying oil that "only" meets the latest API service rating (SM now), then I suggest you purchase genuine Toyota Motor Oil from your Toyota dealer. My personal opinion is that API certified oil of the correct service rating and viscosity from a major manufacturer (Shell, Exxon, Mobil, etc.) is good enough to protect your engine if changed at the recommended intervals. Consumer Reports covered all this years ago. Their last test is getting really stale, but it is still interesting reading. See -
A multitude of contexts applies here. The DIYer; probably never. The quickie lube; maybe if they have software that alerts them to specific oil requirements. Dealership; probably happens by default if/when they stock the OEM branded oil(s). Independent garage; you better hope they're paying attention. (I try my damnedest to keep current)
Not if that's all they look for.
Most of them. There is a certain amount of overlap...
The numbers -aren't- necessarily on the oil container, not all of them and in some cases, not the brands you might expect to have them. The specs say things like; HTHS viscosity of at least xx cPs Double time high temperature oxidation and cam lobe and flat tappet lifter wear (128 hours versus 64 hours) Sequence IIIF (160 hours versus 80 hours) The current API SM rating doesn't even include a flat tappet lifter wear test. (why include a test your oil rating can't pass?)
Yes, meager. API is meager.
API has but one gasoline oil rating, ACEA has four. (do you know what they are and what they represent?) The current API service rating doesn't even come close to meeting the lowest of the ACEA ratings.
True of the ACEA ratings, the API ratings however are drafted by the lube oil manufacturers. Oil companies should produce oils that meet the engine manufacturers specifications, not the other way around.
They may be reluctant to admit that they were lax in choosing the oil specifications to begin with.
Why, what is different about Toyota branded oil? Answer; nothing, it carries just the API SL/SM and ILSAC GF-4 rating all the other rot gut oils do.
Doesn't explain the gelling problem. And if the above statement is based upon what you read in Consumer Reports eleven years ago, you're sadly mistaken.
Absolutely meaningless. The current API rating at the time of that article was what SH? Data points regarding motor oil can go stale in as little as six months.
Decomposing would be more like it.
It wasn't back when it was written. (I have a subscription)
Do you buy your beer based on what the brewery claims or do you buy it based on what your taste buds tell you, or do you buy it on price alone?
These engines started sludging up when Toyota cranked up the temperature to gain LEV status. Only Chrysler's 2.7 V6 and VW's 1.8 Turbo managed to sludge up like that in recent years. Turbo is understandable, but the wimpy 3.0L and 2.2L?
VW then specified a larger filter and Group V synthetics (fully synthetic, not Group IV hydro-cracked IIRC). But don't play the extended drain interval game with Toyotas -- they're not designed for it.
In 2004 Toyota reduced the oil interval from 7500 miles down to 5000 miles. So the new engines still have the same problem. After all, Toyota will have to re-certify with EPA if they change design to downgrade from LEV, ULEV, etc. Maybe they should license the engine technology from Honda (or Nissan's VQ 3.5L). More horsepower, better mileage and no sludge.
I know a mechanic who owns an independent garage here in Columbia, MO. He's a very honest guy, people recommend him highly. No bad reports at the Better Business Bureau. Very nice guy.
When I asked him if he preferred conventional or synthetic oil, he said conventional because it has more detergents. In fact, he said the reason you can go about twice as long before an oil change with synthetic is that synthetic doesn't clean your engine as well as conventional, so the synthetic doesn't get as dirty, so it doesn't need to be changed as often!
That's what he said to me over the phone. It seems wrong to me since synthetic has lots of detergents, maybe more than conventional. I'm just relaying what he said.
Just because someone is a mechanic, doesn't mean they know much about oil, I guess. You, however, I can tell are very knowledgeable about your subject and profession. I only wish all independent mechanics were as informed as you are :-)
Some folks here have said that Toyota branded oil is Mobil 1. Maybe it was at one time. All I know is that my local Toyota dealership uses Pennzoil dino and synthetic.
When my car had Mobil 1 in it, it would often make funny noises when I'd start it. Now that it has Pennzoil Platinum in it, no more funny noises.
It's the same Toyota OEM oil filter that the dealership puts in.
No change in filter.
Although, when I do my first oil change in 5 months, I think I'll switch to Ed's favorite oil filter, Purolator PurOne or Amsoil EaO. I'll try Purolator first, but nobody around here seems to sell it, and I've looked everywhere for it.
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