Ford gets a clue

I think you've got a pretty good handle on us American consumers. Ever considered a career in the fascinating, fast-paced, deadline-driven world of Marketing?

dwight

You have a very simplistic view. We contribute technology advances, services and even export goods. Being a service based economy isn't a bad thing.

We did because our consumption rate was far lower along with labor costs. Profits margins aren't high enough because cost to produce the goods in this country are too high. The public will gravitate toward the lowest price and if the imported goods are lower priced that is what they will buy. The quality between domestic and imported goods is the same for nearly everything. The public is driving manufacturing out of the country more than anyone or anything. If we all decided to buy American then we would import far less. We don't.

If we lived in China we would be fine. We don't and therefore we don't live on Chinese wages.

They "did" it but do they want to do it if they have a choice? Hell no they don't. Would you be a janitor or want your kids to be a janitor?

So now the number is no good? It is as accurate as it can be. It is comparatively low, of that there is no dispute.

You seem to believe immigrants affect wages and I believe differently.

Increased labor supply brings down wages when there is a scarcity of jobs. This currently isn't the case. When the unemployment rate rises substantially then it might be true.

Before what? Besides, wages can't drop below the set minimum no matter how many illegals are here looking for jobs.

Or maybe the guy left the meat packing job and now makes $18/hr in another factory. Maybe the guy obtained a skill and is making $30/hr in a high tech plant. It cuts both ways.

You are making assumptions that wages are dropping. This isn't true. Wages, on the whole, have increased. I would give your argument more validity if the unemployment rate was high. It isn't so your view that immigrants are taking away jobs isn't correct.

Yeah, sure.

So janitors should make as much as skilled labor? Do you think Americans will go for increased inflation to overpay unskilled labor?

You don't seem to grasp its relevance.

Wages aren't dropping. Your assumption is wrong.

None. What is the relevance?

So do YOUR job and keep the quality up. That is why they pay you. If you don't do your job then I'll buy my widgets from someone who is doing theirs. The computer you are using to post was made everywhere but here in the USA. It seems to be mumming along just fine. How may of its components were made in China?

While you are bitching, moaning, complaining and ignoring reality the Chinese are plotting how they are going to eat your lunch. You are not going to get away from working with the them. If you're not careful they will learn what they need to know and then they won't need YOU anymore. Keep underestimating them and your company will be looking for a new business model in the near future. History does repeat itself.

I don't have the stomach for it. :)

This won't last. Engineering goes where the manufacturing goes.

Not 'high enough' to satisify arbitary standards of greed. But more than enough to be profitable and stable.

And that's the sad thing, the first one to move, forces all to eventually move.

But the competition is between us in the USA and them in China. They can eeek out a living in the company dorm. We can't. Who wins the race to the bottom?

It's honest work, and I've had jobs close to as 'bad' as that. There are large numbers of citizens who could benefit from jobs like that, well at least at what they used to pay.

That's why the meat packing plant that was raided and it's illegal alien employees sent back to where they came from was flooded with applications after it hit the news..... nobody needing a job...

Maybe he did go the other way, the job he had still pays less than it did before.

I didn't argue on the whole. I argued in jobs where illegal aliens have flooded the labor market.

The unemployment rate is irrelevant to my argument.

I grow tired of this, you don't get it and won't get it, and I believe we've been through this before. It's a waste of my time.

I'm surprised one of the automakers hasn't capitalized on the drifting crowd. They would buy a small RWD car in a second.

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 13:36:49 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE" puked:

Is there a drifting crowd? Maybe it's just not big down here...

-- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

"lab~rat >:-)" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Not many places to drift, at least in Broward. Now take a trip down Old Cutler at 4am and that's another story...

Michael Johnson wrote in news:J-ydnYKcqfUFalTYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

>>>> _5

I think we're inherently on one side or the other: tech or sales. Not many people can handle both effectively.

Maybe and then again maybe not. Neither one of us knows.

One man's greed is another man's reasonable profit. I'm not going to judge what a person should consider reasonable. I let my feelings be known with my wallet.

Sad? If I can buy a widget made in China for 1/2 the cost of one made here then the decision is simple. There are just some goods that aren't practical to manufacture here. There is no right or wrong about it. It is just economics.

Who says we are racing to the bottom? That is just a plain wrong assumption. What China is going through is nearly the same as what this country went through in the past.

You dodged the question. Would you want that job for yourself or your children?

Probably because the people in the area won't move to where the decent jobs are located.

Maybe he won the lottery too.

So now we are being selective?

I can't help your lack of understanding.

This is where we typically end up, isn't it?

There is an import car show on Spike that shows thousands of kids attending the import events week after week. Many of them are into drifting. IMO, the inherent performance advantages of RWD would go over big with the import crowd.

I could sell something if it were truly a great product but I couldn't do the high pressure routine.

Michael Johnson wrote in news:07adnVaGjbGTzFfYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Yeah, it's a lot easier if the product sells itself and you believe in it. But I could never do the the whole song-'n'-dance thing to unload crap on somebody. I'll gladly stay on the other side of that fence... ;)

I WOULD buy a new Pinto if I could. I liked my Pinto a lot

Mort

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:24:13 GMT, Joe puked:

That could be true, but I won't be there...

-- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

"lab~rat >:-)" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

compacts.

It's one of the few "twisties" you'll find down here...

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:53:15 GMT, Joe puked:

I live off of Shotgun Road in Davie, and it used to be fun back when it was a cow pasture. Took it at 125 in the Camaro once...

-- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

"lab~rat >:-)" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

dwight

125's a bit fast, at least nowadays. ;) I'm up towards Tamarac near Commercial, but I work down in Kendall. Currently, my favorite is getting onto the Sawgrass going south right by the arena off 136th. There's a freebie entrance off Pat Salerno Dr. (can't believe they named a street after that bozo) that goes up around the ramp then straightens out coming down. Pretty sweet accelerating up the ramp, hitting the curve, then coming down at about 90 or so. Have to be careful though, because it's right next to the toll booth.

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:34:18 GMT, Joe puked:

LOL and the State Highway Patrol Office...

-- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

Posts ignore numerous facts that 'professional spokesmen' intentionally forget to mention.

For example, when Henry Ford ran the company, then cars were designed by accountants. Costs were high and Ford made no profits. When Don Petersen took over, then engineers were told to design the best they could. "Yes we are designing to get through cost controls". No. They were in charge - not MBA school graduates. Accountants no longer were the designers. Ford engineers designed the

1964 Mustang. Next car designed by engineers was what? Henry Ford was removed in 1981. Anything takes 4 to 10 years to design. Therefore this car came out in 1987 - Ford Taurus. First car designed by engineers in 22 years. The car that saved Ford Motor and was profitable ... because it was not designed by cost controllers.

Every time the engineers replaced a defective product, they also changed the name. Bronco was designed by accountants. Explorer was the new name because it was designed by engineers. Tempo and Topaz by accountants. Contour, Mondeo and Mystic were engineer replacements. However Mustang and T-bird names remained because those original models were designed by 'car guys'.

Unfortunately Ford has this idea that changing the name of a poor design - the 500 - will increase sales? Bean counter thinking.

Basic to all cars are fundamental numbers - horsepower per liter. Auto companies are losing market share have defective products - do not have 70 Hp per liter engines as standard. Ford and GM both have this problem created by business school 'cost control' mentalities.. Both companies must put two extra pistons in every car. Accounting is again doing the designing - therefore increasing costs. Ford and GM must put two extra pistons in every car just to do same horsepower as everyone else. A Ford or GM V-8 is necessary to do what innovative and therefore American patriotic companies do with a V-6.

Do the numbers yourself. Do all engines in that car do 70 Hp/ liter? That defined patriotic American. American patriots who believe in free markets buy the best - and that means 70 Hp/liter for fuel injection.

Extra pistons, fuel injectors, manifolds, ignition systems, more block, more cam and crank lobes, more car around a bigger engine, more suspensions and larger tires. All this means the anti-American car costs more. And so GM and Ford have no profits. A 52 Hp/liter engine also means other parts of the vehicle are also poorly designed - or what happens when accounting does the design.

Therein lies the major indicator that both Ford and GM are now making inferior products. Meanwhile innovative and therefore (by definition) American patriotic auto companies now have numerous fuel injected models that do 80 and higher horsepower per liter. IOW they innovate as any patriotic American would. Ford and GM cost control - stifle innovation - as any anti-American would.

Another myth is Ford and GM legacy costs. What do they forget to mention? The day that employee retired, then pension funds and health care funds were fully funded. The day that employee retires, then the company has no further payments to that employee retirement. But Ford and GM hope you don't think. They blame legacy costs on retirees hoping you will not ask some embarrassing questions. Those legacy costs exist only if MBA executives (who also did not have driver's licenses) made yesteryears profits look larger by underfunding those pension and health care funds. In GM's case, that underfunding was about $7billion. Money instead used to claim profits that did not exist. This is how an MBA student without a driver's license becomes the top auto executive.

Why were profits missing? Their 1980 and 1990 cars cost too much to build - even with two extra pistons in every engine because 'bean counters' - not 'car guys' designed the product. "No problem" says the MBA. "We will fund that pension fund next year and I will reap a bonus!"

They do these things, then spin them with half truths, because you don't ask embarrassing questions. You did not even do simple arithmetic. Most embarrassing number is 70 Horsepower per liter. What would a 5.0 liter Mustang do if it was only average performance?

350 horsepower. What did the 5.0 liter Mustang do? 205 Horsepower or a pathetic 41 horsepower per liter. That is low performance. But Ford knew they could hype the words 'high performance' and the naive would not do simple arithmetic. Ford needs na=EFve customers who don't ask embarrasssing questions. Is a trend becoming obvious yet?

Well all cars in patriotic auto companies do 70 horsepower per liter. Turbo charged do 85. Supercharged do 100. Some patriotic auto companies now do 80 and 90 HP/liter with only fuel injection. HP/ liter defined high performance. What does the Mustang do? What do all Fords do? GM has a supercharged engine sold in models that end in SS ... that only does 65 horsepower per liter. But they call it high performance - and the dumb will buy it.

Damning numbers. Supercharge means 100 or more horsepower per liter. But GM, like Ford, is left to sell to fools - the naive. Only a fool would buy a supercharged car that only does 65 horsepower per liter - then believe those lies about legacy costs. But many only listen to advertisements - and remain fools of that propaganda.

Above introduces why Ford and GM are losing money. Those are classic symptoms of cars design by MBA school graduates - the 'bean counters'. When cars are designed by 'car guys', then costs decrease AND the 70 Hp/liter engine exists in all models.

Thank god that foreigners are selling cars here. After all, the 70 Horsepower per liter engine was developed in the early 1970 in GM, detailed in Popular Science, Mar 1990, page 82, and kept out of America by companies that stifle innovation. Why? Patriotic auto companies would have that 70 Hp per liter technology in cars in 1992. So here we are in 2007. What cars from Ford and GM have 70 or more horsepower per liter engines? Does the word 'none' sound familiar? This is why patriots - people who believe in free markets - buy the best and get 'rescued American technologies' in their cars. This is why Toyota, et al are taking market share from 'cost controlled and anti-innovation' car companies that are still using 1970 and 1980 technologies. 70 HP/liter is a damning number that says why Ford and GM need bankruptcy. Bankruptcy saves worker jobs by firing defective top management. GM and Ford are dominated by those who stifle innovation - MBAs and lawyers. Bankruptcy eliminates the enemies of American workers and replaces them with 'people who come from where the work gets done' - also called 'car guys'.

Nothing new was posted above. Too many listen to the 'professional spokesman' rather than talk to engineers - the 'car guys'. 1987 Ford Taurus - first car designed by engineers in Ford in 22 years. Only those who hated Ford would not know all this. Only those who hated Fords would listen to lies from company MBAs and lawyers. 70 Horsepower per liter is how a patriot - one who demands innovation - sees a problem before profits are lost. 70 Horsepower per liter define why foreign automakers are, by definition, better American patriots. After all, they (not Ford and GM) use the technologies developed by American innovators. Ford and GM still don't have that

30 year old technology > Yea, I know.