Ford Posts Loss of $5.8 Billion, Worst Since '92

He was feeding you a line of BS as to how much he was making, unless he was working 15 hours over time every week, and as he only has 3 years with Ford thats is stretching it very hard.

Whitelightning

Every employer with 5 or more emplyeees is required to do all of those except the Health Insurance, and big companies arent mandated to do that ether

Whitelightning

It's the first honorable thing he's done in a long time.

I think to call it honorable may be a stretch...... let's call it a good start. Bob

Because the Opels were in the shop more than they were on the road and had a lousy reliability rep. They were NOT very good cars. How could they be? They were a GM product!

DING DING DING...we have a winner! After castigating auto workers for making a good living and other stupidity, someone's finally hit upon a big chunk of the problem.

You've got it...in spades. The Japs learned in the '80s (from us) the power of false and hyped advertising, and the advantage of pummeling couch potatoes with tons of it. Log your cable or broadcast viewing any given week...Toyota and hell, even Subaru and Mazda will out-advertise GM OR Ford by as much as 3 to 1.

One has to remember...Americans, by and large, aren't very bright. They fall for advertising scams like this every time, and have for over a century.

Liar. First of all, these people are getting good buyouts. You can't get one. Sounds like typical jealousy.

...and had rotted teeth and no routine medical care.

What are you proposing...dropping the standard of living in America even more?

Not anymore. Seen F-150 sales figures lately? Off 30%.

You're dealing with pro-management/anti-labor smoke and mirrors. The biggest F-150 plant is...tada...the Rouge plant in Dearborn, and they make MORE than your local plant does. They're not closing Rouge...they're closing YOURS. Obviously, labor cost per unit is NOT the problem. Get the picture?

Oh yeah...the Rouge has been around for some 90 years. There goes your "old plant" theory, too.

You obviously are oblivious to all the cuts Chrysler workers took to keep them afloat in the late '70s/early '80s...sometimes MORE that

30%, and that was when interest rates were in the high 'teens.

I think it's just a figment of this guy's imagination. He hates union workers, because they do better than he does. I see it every day...stupid people, working more for less, but wanting no one else to do well, either. The Japs laugh their asses off at people like this every day, and take advantage of them in all their scab plants now in the US every day.

For such an interesting conversation piece, this thread sure has resulted in a lot of idiotic responses! Wow!

I notice there's no mention of special restructuring charges in this announcement, so we need that. Here it is: "Excluding restructuring and other special charges, Ford said it lost $1.2 billion, or 62 cents per share, from continuing operations."

That gives us an idea of the hemmoraging rate, but no the amount of money that's actually gone. Some of the restructuring charges can be real money, but a lot of it's fake. Can't tell from this. Check these out:

"The charges included $2.2 billion to re-value assets in North America and $1.6 billion to decrease the value of Jaguar and Land Rover assets." That's not money. Just some numbers on a paper. So, of the 5.8 Billion, 3.8 is fake.

" Ford also took an $861 million charge for jobs bank benefits and employee separations due to its plans to idle factories in North America, a $259 million charge for continued global personnel reduction and a $437 million charge for the cost of employee retirements that occurred earlier than planned. " There were also some special gains that make these numbers balance out (or at least I hope so). This is real money, but it's not money they actually paid out already. It's money that they are going to have to pay (really!) so they are considering it like it's already gone.

Other interesting information: Their sales revenue fell 10% year-over-year. The market share is down to 15.5%. The economy is strong, and consumers have a lot of spending money. If the economy worsens, they will be in an awful world of hurt. Just awful.

Now- - anybody remember how many billions they have to operate on? Here it is: " Ford also said it had $23.6 billion in cash available at the end of the quarter, but it was exploring the possibility of using its automotive assets as collateral to borrow cash to maintain liquidity as losses and restructuring costs mount. The company expects to spend about $3.5 billion more of its cash by the end of the year. "

I think they have about 2 years before they run out of money. This AP article from Monday mentions that they're going to have to borrow money to pay for the turnaround. They can't borrow money like a normal company. They'll have to offer collateral to borrow anything. I've never heard of that - I think this is about as far into a death spiral as you can fall. Wonder if they can turn it around.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:00:17 -0700, DeserTBoB wrote something wonderfully witty:

Nah I don't "hate" union workers. I'm able to do quite well for myself without the need for collective bargaining or the paying of Union dues. However, I do realize that not everyone is able to effectively deal in the market place on their own skills & abilities and need the benefits of collective bargaining to get them anywhere.

That wasn't my point. I think that unfortunately collective bargaining for salary & benefits has now got them to the point where they may have priced themselves out of the current market. It can happen when economics shift.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:08:09 GMT, "Whitelightning" wrote something wonderfully witty:

I forgot to mention that it was with overtime, an average of about

20-hours and a shift differential. If I remember correctly he started at ~$22.00 an hour with an excellent benefits package. His job really is to mount the door handles on F-150's. Not a very demanding job for the wage.

We have several people in the area who have multiple generations of their family who have worked at the plant which is the case in this guys family, he has a Da & brother who work there also. The very first thing many do after High School graduation is sign up on the plants hire list. It took about eight years for this guy to get called for a job. He had planned on staying there forever. No one saw the closing coming since they make F-150's. It is a pretty big deal here locally and getting a lot of media coverage.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:58:27 -0700, DeserTBoB wrote something wonderfully witty:

I know what the buyouts are. They have been discussed to death in the press. Depending on years service and program picked the basic offer is 100,000 or 140,000 cash pre-tax. That isn't an awful lot of money to be left without any job and no other major manufacturing job to go to. Our other major industry is call centers.

I have no worry about a buyout as I am retired military, have a decent job making good money that isn't going anywhere and am covered by a pretty good pension program.

Still the best selling vehicle in America.

The Rouge plant is larger and has been modernized. There is no money, because Ford is bleeding money, to modernize the Norfolk plant. Ford claims that it costs $300 per unit more to make F-150's at Norfolk and that is the reason for closing. I have no idea if that is the truth or not, just that is what Ford said. If it is the case and I worked there, I would be willing to take a pay cut in order to make the numbers work as opposed to losing my job.

Apparently I am oblivious to those particular cuts. However, I'm not calling you names over it. Were those proposals that management made to labor or that labor presented to management. I was talking about labor coming up with proposals to cut production costs in order to keep their plant open & save their jobs. It seems that it is always management that has to come up with the ideas and drive them down as opposed to the people closer to the problem. Labor is one of the biggest cost factors in production. Allowing them input into the process of how to reduce that cost seems natural to me.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:20:24 GMT, "Jeff" wrote something wonderfully witty:

I think the point I was trying to make Jeff is that the Feds on are eating away on both sides of the equation taking money out of the functioning economy. This hurts both the people producing products and those buying those products. When people can't buy products the company that makes products don't need as many people to make them which leads to less people making money and hence a death spiral into Burger King jobs.

I'm glad that you have good reliable public transportation where you live. I certainly wish I did, but I realize that the economics of it simply don't work. I could walk about 45 minutes to the Mall where there is a bus stop, take a two-hour bus trip to go twenty miles to work, and then walk about another thirty minutes to my work place, but I think you can see the overall logistics issues that presents.

Really? Where do you buy your used cars?

Here in the real world used cars go for about 3/4 the price of a new one, with 50K-70K on the odometer. As a matter of fact I have seen used cars selling in suburban Phillly for more than the new ones cost. Don't know who would buy them. The local Jeep dealer had a used Wrangler on the lot with a sticker of $16,900 while on the other side of the lot sat a new Wrangler with a sticker of $16,800. The used Jeep had about 50K miles on ot too! I think they keep the price of used stuff high to get people to buy new.

Mark

Price stickers are startingpoint for negotiations

A used car may have a lot of extras > Here in the real world used cars go for about 3/4 the price of a new

Does anybody know what kind of recreational drugs the ad writers are on? It looks like really good stuff.

Mark

Because the new car side of the lot doesn't offer buy here pay here, the the fool buying the over priced used one's credit is soo screwed up he cant buy a new one, and the lot doesnt mind repoing it and selling six times before its actualy gone.

Whitelightning

Yet, people also benefit from the federal government. The Soc. Sec. taxes go towards retirement, people get government-sponsored health care, Congress gets paid to make laws, the courts get their share, grants made made for fire trucks and training, schools get money, a lot of research gets done, transportation dollars go for highways and subways, soldiers get pay so they can defend the country, etc.

Well, ride a bike or set up a car pool.

Jeff

Really? According to Kelly Blue Book, a 2001 Ford Taurus with 70,000 mi should be around $5,000 to $6,000 depending on condition and accessories (private party price).

And which had more accessories? Probably the used one. You are comparing a Jeep that costs around $30,000 new to one that costs $20,000 new (list price).

And, if you were a dealer, what would you do? Sell cars at the minimum profit to keep you in business or try to make as much money as you can on each vehible. Hell, if they could sell a used one for $50,000, they would. In fact, if anyone is interested in my used Contour for only $50,000, you can buy it today.

Jeff