performance, Mr. Mulally replied, "There's no reason why we can't do this,
so it's no pressure." <snip>
Don't bet anything but wooden nickels on that line of thinking.
My opinion, and that's all it is, is my opinion, is that the Ford family
wants to take the company private, drive the stock down and its cheaper to
The worst thing for a company is board of directors and a ton of share
holders more interested in short term stock dividends and ratings, than
long term health of the company and the product.
And public traded companies end up just that way.
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:18:12 GMT, "Whitelightning"
I think Ford (and GM and Chysler) is in a lot worse shape than they
admit. They only chance any of them have to survive is to get labor
cost way down and improve quality. It will never happen in current
structuring. They are kidding themselve (managemtn and Labor) if they
think they can pull it off otherwise. Prices have reached critical
mass and can no longer sell to support current costs and benifits. If
they all could cut labor costs 30% or more they could sell vehicle 15%
cheaper across the board and make a profit and boost sales but they
seem to keep hoping that people will except pay more for their car
than some did for a house 20 years ago. The worst is yet to come for
Oh the real idiot speaks! You really are clueless but as usual shoot
you mouth off about thing you hane no real understanding of. Currently
70% of the cost of building a new car is LABOR!!!!! The market will
not longer support it plan and simple. The big three will go under if
this is not changed as the writing in on the wall. The airlines have
been going through this for years and do not make what they once did.
You are free to beilve othersie but wishing do not make it happen. It
is going to basicall come down to in the next 3 to 5 years tops that
there will either be big waage concessions or they will be out of a
Job because the Big 3 will go bankrupt. The pot is not limitless and
it is getting empty fast and higher fuel prices will be here soon two
with $4 a gallon fuel not far away one day and Detriot is still stuck
on gas hogs that they have to beg people to buy. I bet you beleive
that we can grow our way out of this in the field with ethanol too.
The only problem with tis is if all of the corn was used (leaving none
for food at all) it would only replace about 25 to 30% of the gas used
daily tops but since we have to eat too it will not make that big of
impact. Detriot has their head in the sand and just keeps build the
gas hogs that will soon have gas payments bigger than car payments.
They only way they can survive long term is to get costs down and
lower price of product to offset higher fuel costs or go out of
bussiness. Sure you can blame Toyota and Honda but Detriot gave the
market to them with their limited vision and there fixation with high
profit SUVs since mid 90's that paid labors bills but are not longer
bringing in profit because they are not selling without big discounts
and incentives but you would know this too if you knew math and
Well if I was a Ford Assembly Line worker at a plant facing closure I
think I just might take a 30% pay cut as opposed to a 100% one. So I
go from making $70k to $49k a year to screw on door handles. Its
still better then food stamps. (BTW those are real numbers as a guy I
used to work with went on with the plant three years ago. We still
keep in touch. He was making about $32k a year as an industrial
mechanic when he worked with me.)
The Norfolk Va F-150 plant is closing sometime in 2007. Ford claims
that it costs $300 per unit more to make a F-150 at that plant then
any other one making F-150's. The plant is old, not as highly
automated as some others and not worth the capital investment even
though it makes Ford's best selling vehicle. Do you think that labor
at that plant got together and said "Ok for the sake of our jobs will
reduce labor by $305 per unit to make us the cheapest plant making
It could have been done, but it would have been unprecedented. Union
labor working with management to cut production costs and save jobs.
Perish the thought.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:08:09 GMT, "Whitelightning"
I think it's just a figment of this guy's imagination. He hates union
workers, because they do better than he does. I see it every
day...stupid people, working more for less, but wanting no one else to
do well, either. The Japs laugh their asses off at people like this
every day, and take advantage of them in all their scab plants now in
the US every day.
Nah I don't "hate" union workers. I'm able to do quite well for
myself without the need for collective bargaining or the paying of
Union dues. However, I do realize that not everyone is able to
effectively deal in the market place on their own skills & abilities
and need the benefits of collective bargaining to get them anywhere.
That wasn't my point. I think that unfortunately collective
bargaining for salary & benefits has now got them to the point where
they may have priced themselves out of the current market. It can
happen when economics shift.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:08:09 GMT, "Whitelightning"
I forgot to mention that it was with overtime, an average of about
20-hours and a shift differential. If I remember correctly he started
at ~$22.00 an hour with an excellent benefits package. His job really
is to mount the door handles on F-150's. Not a very demanding job for
We have several people in the area who have multiple generations of
their family who have worked at the plant which is the case in this
guys family, he has a Da & brother who work there also. The very
first thing many do after High School graduation is sign up on the
plants hire list. It took about eight years for this guy to get
called for a job. He had planned on staying there forever. No one
saw the closing coming since they make F-150's. It is a pretty big
deal here locally and getting a lot of media coverage.
Liar. First of all, these people are getting good buyouts. You can't
get one. Sounds like typical jealousy.
...and had rotted teeth and no routine medical care.
What are you proposing...dropping the standard of living in America
Not anymore. Seen F-150 sales figures lately? Off 30%.
You're dealing with pro-management/anti-labor smoke and mirrors. The
biggest F-150 plant is...tada...the Rouge plant in Dearborn, and they
make MORE than your local plant does. They're not closing
Rouge...they're closing YOURS. Obviously, labor cost per unit is NOT
the problem. Get the picture?
Oh yeah...the Rouge has been around for some 90 years. There goes
your "old plant" theory, too.
You obviously are oblivious to all the cuts Chrysler workers took to
keep them afloat in the late '70s/early '80s...sometimes MORE that
30%, and that was when interest rates were in the high 'teens.
I know what the buyouts are. They have been discussed to death in the
press. Depending on years service and program picked the basic offer
is 100,000 or 140,000 cash pre-tax. That isn't an awful lot of money
to be left without any job and no other major manufacturing job to go
to. Our other major industry is call centers.
I have no worry about a buyout as I am retired military, have a decent
job making good money that isn't going anywhere and am covered by a
pretty good pension program.
Still the best selling vehicle in America.
The Rouge plant is larger and has been modernized. There is no money,
because Ford is bleeding money, to modernize the Norfolk plant. Ford
claims that it costs $300 per unit more to make F-150's at Norfolk and
that is the reason for closing. I have no idea if that is the truth
or not, just that is what Ford said. If it is the case and I worked
there, I would be willing to take a pay cut in order to make the
numbers work as opposed to losing my job.
Apparently I am oblivious to those particular cuts. However, I'm not
calling you names over it. Were those proposals that management made
to labor or that labor presented to management. I was talking about
labor coming up with proposals to cut production costs in order to
keep their plant open & save their jobs. It seems that it is always
management that has to come up with the ideas and drive them down as
opposed to the people closer to the problem. Labor is one of the
biggest cost factors in production. Allowing them input into the
process of how to reduce that cost seems natural to me.
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