The New Hot Rod Lincoln!

For the sake of your sanity just walk away!

LOL! You are a trip! I think the last strawman I helped construct was the one in our garden when I was maybe six years old. I'm not insulting you. I'm just stating the obvious. How can I argue with you when are zinging around from topic to topic spouting non sequiturs like candy popping out of a Pez dispenser on crank? You have some kind of twisted thought process that allows you to reform the laws of physics and conventional logic to make you really believe the stuff rattling around in your head. Hell, there's no way I can overcome that mess and make you see the light. It is entertaining to watch you maneuver from one statement to another with total disregard for any logical flow of thought. You must be a buzz kill when playing Trivial Pursuit.

When it comes to creating an alternate reality... you rock dude!

I second that! Brent, when you escape from your Bizarro World alternate reality let us know, maybe we can continue this conversation then. Sheesh...

Another cite that backs up what I stated:

thermal effeciency isn't MPG:

"Gasoline has a heating value of about 124,800 Btu per gallon, compared to ethanol which has a heating value of about 84,100 Btu per gallon. The difference in those values suggests that to accomplish the same amount of work, you.d need to burn more ethanol than gasoline. That's why current flex-fuel vehicles consume more E85 than gasoline, resulting in a decrease in fuel economy.

However, ethanol has another property that could offset its disadvantage of a lower heating value: its higher octane rating.

Octane ratings measure a fuel's ability to resist premature ignition of the compressed fuel-air mixture. An engine with a higher compression ratio can produce more mechanical energy from its fuel. If the compression is too high, however, a fuel charge can ignite prematurely (knock). Higher octane fuels thus allow the use of engines with higher compression ratios."

Increased thermal efficiency of ethanol or E85 engines:

"By contrast, EPA engineers tested 100\% ethanol (E100) in an engine with a whopping 19.5:1 compression ratio and found that the engine demonstrated a thermal efficiency of more than 40\%--much higher than a gasoline engine of the same size. A dedicated E100--or even dedicated E85--engine could thus be far more efficient than a gasoline engine. A flex-fuel engine, however, is not an optimized ethanol engine. "

FFV's aren't exploiting E85 to it's full potentional:

"The current state of production flex-fuel engines in the US basically take the gasoline engine and adapt it to handle ethanol blends, but without optimization."

But, FFV's are getting some of it:

Saab:

""The engine management system automatically adjusts for the type of fuel so, if there is no ethanol available, the customer can simply run on gasoline at any time," says Kjell ac Bergstrüm, President and CEO of Saab Automobile Powertrain AB. "Turbocharged engines are particularly well-suited to exploiting the benefits of ethanol and our work with this engine indicates there is a great deal of development potential for this fuel.""

(just to show the car did go on sale)

Ford:

"Ford FFVs automatically adjust to any mixture of E85 and gasoline. Onboard sensors and computers monitor the fuel mixture to optimize performance."

Delphi engine management systems for FFV vehicles:

"With the Delphi Multi Fuel System for two fuels (also known as flex fuel), a vehicle in Brazil can be powered with 100 percent gasoline, 100 percent ethanol or a blend of gasoline and ethanol.with little or no change to the engine management system (EMS). Every time the driver fills the fuel tank, EMS sensors send feedback to an electronic control module (ECM). This feedback allows the ECM to precisely calculate the ethanol percentage immediately after combustion.without any injection delays. Once calculated, EMS parameters, such as the amount of fuel injected, spark timing, and cold startup conditions, adjust automatically."

There is what I stated, all supported by cite. If you think differently, put up or shut up.

Projection.

Projection & insult.

Insult.

Insult.

Where's your content, Mike? Did you pick up that PE license from the factory in china that makes the forged UL labels?

Let me know when you want to discuss facts instead of what you pulled out of your ass. It's clear that you ran out of knowledge some time ago.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote in news:3PqdnYV4HLC8GAHYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

You can take all your theory and your citations and put them where the sun don't shine. Here's the part where _you_ put up or shut up:

Assuming these two _existing_ vehicles are similar in most aspects, drive whatever powered-by-ethanol vehicle you want over a specific path for a specific time under specific conditions, then drive whatever powered-by-gasoline vehicle you want over the same specific path for the same specific time under the same specific conditions. Can't wait to see the results. Welcome to reality.

Uh, BRENT, we were talking about: BRENT: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:36 PM "engines made to exploit E85 are more thermally efficient than those made for pump gasoline."

But since you were so kind as to supply my cite for me, I'll post the relevant part of your cite that directly refutes your position, yet again.

11/14. By Van By Guest - Saturday, August 05 2006 Website "Lets run the numbers one more time. Let's mix 80\% gasoline with 20\% ethanol, which results in the blend having an energy content of 116,600 BTU per gallon, or about a 9\% drop in energy content. Now if we raise the compression we get a 2\% improvement in thermal efficiency. And if Direct injection can push the thermal efficiency up another 5\%, we have a blended fuel engine getting higher mileage than a low compression gasoline engine. However if we are talking about a E100 engine, 45\% of 84,100 (37845) is still less than 38\% of 124,800 (47424). Or so it seems to me."

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in news:3KedndYWNtSN5wHYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

...I just had to... ;)

Which means of course you have nothing to disprove anything I claimed, no cites to show me wrong, in other words, you have nothing. There was no theory in those cites by the way. All were about existing vehicles and results of testing that has been done. All are fact, not theory.

The old raise the requirement.... now I have to go out and buy two indentical cars and run costly enginering experiments for you. Laugh. I don't have to. I can take the word of the engineers at Ford, Nissan, Saab, Delphi, Bosch, and the federal government instead, as cited or that you can find on your own time.

You all are real pieces of work. Just keep raising the bar of proof for me, but never offering anything yourselves but what you pull from your asses and fling.

When you have some facts, let me know.

Wow, you just keep them coming. Will you be here all week?

Well, do I see a couple of insults here? I believe I do!

Exploit, as in use the qualities of E85.

That's some comment posted by some guy... not an article. It's like citing a usenet post that has no backup. All I see are numbers pulled out of his ass. Let me know when you actually have something, you know, a real cite, not some half assed comment.

Oh, and btw, why don't you read the part where he's stating that exploiting ethanol's characteristics result in a higher thermal efficiency? Which is *gasp* what I wrote.

Thanks for playing. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote in news:eqGdnVe1qMhLDwHYnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

I don't need to cite or prove anything. The facts are already out there just waiting for you to see them as others have already pointed out in full detail.

Those others say the same thing, they don't have to cite or prove anything. Trouble for the lot of you is that I have cited and proven what I say to be true. When you have some facts, let me know.