Prius vs. VW TDI Diesel

Toyota doesn't claim anything, but the EPA says it gets 60 mpg in the city and 50 on the highway. Toyota reports their findings. I can't get 60 in the city except when my trip lasts longer than about 20 minutes. Those first five minutes at 35 mpg takes a while to overcome. Still, I'm averaging about 52 mpg on each tank of gas and that is probably better than I would get with the VW. Besides, I bet I could kick that VW's ass accelerating from 60 to 80 and cough up a lot less pollution in the process.

I heard, there is a plane for Diesel-Hybrid and Fuelcell-hybrid in the future. We talking over 100 mil/gal or even 200-300 mil/gal using fuelcell hybrid. Bush needs to go first, old oil policy don't work, too many people dieing.

The Gold Diesel pollutes a lot more than the Prius, and the Prius is more reliable than the Golf.

Fuel economy is only a secondary reason for hybridization, and hybrid technology is only in its infancy. The basic point is getting away from the century-old concept of connecting a combustion engine to the wheels of a vehicle through some sort of transmission. Electric drive has been desirable for at least half a century now, but electric vehicles have always lacked range and had problems with integrating accessories like power steering, power brakes and air conditioning. Hybrids overcome those obstacles: the range is actually better than the equivalent conventional power train (a hybridized diesel gets better fuel economy than a conventional diesel) and now we have electric power steering, power brakes and A/C.

Hybridization also separates acceleration performance from engine power, so the engine size (and weight) can be reduced. The Toyota Synergy Hybrid System has no transmission, alternator or starter, making the complexity trade-off a wash (better if you consider the historical reliability of those components compared with the Toyota hybrid system warranty.) Hybrids have greatly reduced warm-up requirements and far less loss of performance at altitude. Emissons can be more tightly controlled because (in the Toyota system) the engine is under essentially 100% computer control. The mixture, ignition timing, valve timing, throttle and load - even when the engine runs and when it doesn't - are all computer controlled and have essentially no input from the nut behind the wheel.

Hybridization is a very powerful enabling technology for powered vehicles of every type (including fuel cell vehicles) that need widely varying power. If you still aren't impressed wait until the next generation of hybrids!

BTW- here at 7000 feet the TDI is very sluggish merging into traffic from a stop. They put out smoke but don't get moving like a Prius does. The electric power of the Prius doesn't care a whit about altitude.

Mike

Yes, diesel-Electric has been around at least before WW2, nothing new, ships and submarines been using that technology a long-long time. So as the fuel injection (EF), that was used in the ME-109(Stuka) German fighters, that's why the ME had a higher flying ceiling than any other fighter planes and didn't stall out at steep dives. Only the Japanese started using it in the early 70's in their performance cars. I owned a Datsun 280Z+2 had EF fuel injection, but the model before the 260Z had carburetor. Now the Japs started the Hybrid cars, I think Ford has a few models also out, even SUV's. I'm suprised MFG-ers haven't tried propein ful insted of gasolin, than it would be relly 100% clean technology. Seems, if oil prices stay high, hybrid technology will stick. Julius

[ snip]

The propane works OK, but it requires a huge and heavy tank. The power available in propane is lower than gas. My dad had a Chevy Impala converted to propane in the early 60's for commuting. There is also only a limited amount of propane (or so I've been told) since it's a byproduct of cracking oil to make gas, kerosine, diesel, etc. If you convert all the cars to use propane, what do you do with the millions of barrels of gasoline made at the same time?

The toyota breakthrough was not just the use of an electric motor, but a transmission that allows the two motors (gas and electric) to be joined so they operate as one. Neither has to be big enough to handle 100% of the maximum load by itself.

As MP said in the previous post, the hybrids are much cleaner and have slightly better milage. Mine averages 47 MPG, and I don't drive it under optimum conditions. A quick day trip last week... 55 MPG for 200 miles, including climbing over 4 coastal mountain ranges.

Plus, we love our cars! :)

*** First of all Toyota does not "claim" 61 mpg. Your friendly US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) conducted a dynamometer test and concluded that the Toyota Prius achieved 51 mpg under highway conditions and 60 mpg under city driving conditions.

What you might expect under real-world driving conditions will probably vary from those numbers. I have put 10,000 miles on my '05 Prius and have averaged 49.3 mpg -- about half in town and half on the highway.

Others have averaged less. Others have averaged more.

Dave Bassage and his cohorts drove an '05 Prius 1,390 miles on one tank of gas and averaged 109 mpg.

It all depends on how you drive.

BTW, the Prius has an extremely low emission/pollution numbers -- so low that in California, the toughest emission laws in the US -- no smog test is required.

Regarding TDI diesels:

"It is still an open question whether diesel engines can be made clean enough at a competitive price to extensively exploit their efficiency advantage in the U.S. market. Most of today's diesels, such as Volkswagen's Jetta TDI (turbocharged direct-injection), score "Inferior" in Green Book ratings even though they are more fuel-efficient than their gasoline counterparts. The Jetta 1.9-liter TDI diesel automatic rates 32 MPG in the city and 43 MPG on the highway, for an overall average of 36 MPG. That's nearly 40 percent better than the 26 MPG average for the Jetta with a 2.0-liter gasoline engine. But the diesel version is certified to a standard that allows it to emit, for every mile driven, more than eight times the amount of nitrogen oxide (NOx) emitted by the gasoline-powered Jetta, which now qualifies as a Tier 2 bin 5 vehicle in the majority of the country."

The above is from:

The claim to fame of the Prius is that it achieves spectacularly good gas mileage and spectacularly good emission numbers -- at the same time.

earle

*

OK! But I'm an average consumer and I don't care about emissions of cars, rather $$$$ cost. There are many cars now days using conventional technology get close to 40 mil/gal or more fuel consumption for less cost than Prius. Dodge Neon gets 36 mil/gal 2.0L engine (my friend has one) and the base price of the car is $11,000. VW Golf Diesel TDI gets over 40 mil/gal overall. Prius is a major improvement I admit, but to it's size, not a cheap car. Basic model is over $20,000 new. To be green or health conches, they all ways stick it to consumers. To be a polluter and junky cost less. Eat fast food, drive big SUV's etc... Big cars cost less, than smaller cars, should be the other way around, isn't it? In Europe car taxes paid after the size of engine and the car. For a 5.0L engine vehicle in Europe you would pay lot of taxes, even if it's in a motorcycle. US fight wars for oil and people dieing for it every day. It's getting less and less, but the government promotes more fuel consumptions. Don't get it, do you? Julius

OK, so you are a polluter, who doesn't care about the environment, health, etc.

If you want basic, no frills transportation, that's a good price range, but there are much better cars in the same price range. Consumer Reports says that it gets overall 24 MPG. City is 16 and highway is 34.

It says that the Prius gets overall 44 MPG. City is 35 and highway is

2. The Neon's EPA mileage is 29 mpg/city, 36 mpg/highway compared to the Prius's 60 city, 51 highway.

Diesel costs about 15¢ gallon more than regular around here, and is a big time polluter, but you don't care about polluting the atmosphere.

And you get a lot more for your money than you get with a car like the Neon.

In the US 9 million new car gets sold a year, Toyota plans to sell

100,000 new Prius this year. A drop in the bucket. My point is, I would like to be a non-polluter,green, but companies stick it to consumers by making you pay more, when should be the other way around. If the consumer wants to buy big gas-guzzler or muscle cars have them pay for it. Chrysler all most went bank rupt in the 80's, because didn't see the sign of oil price change, they were still making large 8 cyl. cars, 9 mil/gal. Most people ran out buy Hondas and Toyotas, the joke of the cars of those days. Gov. had to bail them out. If you like Humvees, pay your nose out until it bleeds. JS

Yeah, but it's more than double last year's sales, and next year will be more. But what does that have to do with the topic under discussion?

You want them to give the cars away? It costs them more to make the hybrids, so they have to charge more.

They do. Check the prices of gas guzzlers and muscle cars; they are not in the Neon's or Echo's ten to twelve grand price range.

BTW, that eleven grand you quoted for the Neon is after a bunch of discounts; the reason for the discounts is that the companies can't sell enough of them at list price. Toyota doesn't have that problem with the Prius.

**No! But if hybrid wants better promotion, make it cheaper than the the old technology. For example the Honda Civic non-hybrid cost around $15000, but the Hybrid is $18,500. Same body, wheels, no transmission, except the engine is different and has more than one batteries. So where does the extra $3500/car cost play in there? If I buy for example the Hybrid Civic, it would take 3-4 years normal driving before it start costing less, than the standard Civic. So where is the incentives, other than being a hard hat over the environment. Manufacturing cars is very polluting, flying airplanes is even more polluting, since CO2 is dumped directly in to the upper atmosphere. **They not, but a lot more material and more cost of MFG. goes into larger cars. An 8 cyl. engine more time consuming to menufacture and assemble than a 4 cyl. Bigger cars need more paint etc... so every thing is more and more. Get it? **I looked at the web and the basic Neon, quated $11,124. Yes, after employee and $2000 cash back discount. Rated 36/29 mi/gal.

Julius

>

Wave a magic wand and make it cheaper.

For many of us, that is incentive enough. I had a paid-off 2001 Acura that I sold so I could buy a 2004 Prius.

Interesting thing is that the Prius I bought (fully loaded) has almost all the features that my Acura had; all that it is lacking are electric seats, heated seats, and leather seats. Plus it has features that the Acura doesn't have (but, I have to acknowledge, that the 2004 Acura has).

So, in my case, it wasn't a matter of paying a few thousand extra; it was a matter of buying or not buying. And even though I'm paying about $300 a month for four years, I think it's worth the expense to have a car that pollutes less and that doesn't use gas as much. A bonus is that the savings at the pump pays about 1/4 to 1/3 of my car payments.

Really? I believe that they go down the assembly line at the same speed.

Gas guzzlers and muscle cars aren't necessarily larger than the Prius. The Prius is in the same size category as the Camry and the Accord, not the Celica and the Civic.

That's what I said, "after a bunch of discounts."

Compared to Prius's 51/60 mi/gal.

Way to contradict yourself in the same post. You say that hybrids should be cheaper if the manufacturers want people to buy them, but then in the next section you say that larger cars CAN'T be cheaper because so much goes into building them. News flash! A lot goes into building a hybrid vehicle as well.

Toyota's hybrid systems in particular have two power trains that work together or independently to provide thrust. Both the Toyota Hybrid System (pre-04 models) and the Hybrid Synergy Drive are quite a bit more complex than your 8 cyl gas guzzler. Now which is cheaper to produce? A single 8-cyl engine, or a 4-cyl engine plus a pure electric system (which, judging by several EV conversion sites I've seen recently, will end up costing at least as much as that 8-cyl engine when mass produced). I would say that the entire line of logic doesn't hold any water when comparing the two different power plants.

Furthermore, you are forgetting basic economics. That's right, good ol' supply and demand. Toyota can't produce these cars fast enough. Even at current pricing, waiting lists to take delivery are weeks and even months long depending on where in the world you are. In a seller's market such as this, the consumer will pay what the seller wants or will walk away empty handed. Suppose tomorrow, the Camry was the most popular car in the nation and everyone made a rush to get them. Pretty soon, you'll see the price jump up to the cost of the Prius. That's not "sticking it to the consumer" as you put it, that's life.

OK! How about some hard numbers. Lets say I buy the Dodge Neon for $14500/ -$2000 discount, so the car cost $12,500. Your Prius cost $20,000, $7,500 more than the Neon. For $7500 I can buy 2678 gal gas at $2.80/gal average price now days. If the Neon gets average 30 mile/gal (36/29)than I can drive it 80,000 miles on $7500,(30x2678gal) difference you paid for the Prius. If I only drive the Neon 10,000 mile a year, that's 8 year driving, car cost me less than your Prius. After 8 year I'm ready to buy another new car. So where is the incentive to buy the Prius? It's all gimmicks. If you want to be a hard hat environmentalist, go protest against airplanes or power plants, they pollute more than all the cars on world. Do you know what's the gas/millage of a Boeing Jumbo plane? Figure! I flew DC-10, it has 35,000 gal tank and you know what? In one flight, used it up from San Francisco to Frankfurt, dumped all the

35,000 gal fuel pollution 30,000 feet in the upper atmosphere. Politicians like to use cars as environment unsafe, because it's local and every one using it. This way, they can transfer the guilt on consumers. JS

For eight years, I would far rather drive a Prius than a Neon.

Try running my real-world numbers. Our 2002 Prius is coming up on being 3 years old and is coming up on 50K miles. We normally keep cars for 200K miles. Our actual fuel economy is in the mid-upper 40s, call it 48 mpg. Our last new car was a Dodge, so I will never buy a Mopar as long as I live.

Mike

Totally irrelevant. As I see it, there are essentially two reasons for buying a Prius:

1. The environment.
2. The geek factor.

I don't understand what you are doing on this newsgroup; your anti-Prius (anti-Hybrid) rants aren't going to convince anyone here.

yeah, I do that too, but by buying and driving a Prius, I'm actually doing something to help the environment. I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

Oh, by the way, for 80,000 miles at 55 MPG, at $2.80 per gallon, the cost of gas is $4,073. That drops the price differential to $3427. Then there's the various state and federal tax incentives, which would save an additional amount from $500 to the full three grand, depending on tax bracket and state of residence.

As I said, I'll do what I can for the environment while you rant and rave.

Then there's the matter of cost of maintenance and repair. Over an eight year span, those costs for the Prius will be much less than for the Neon.

I my car rental on a vacation last year was a Neon. Never so happy to get back into my 02 Prius when I got home. No comparison in ride, drive, etc.