Beaten out only by Land Rover.
Wouldn't it just be swell if Saab could build a high quality car? Sure as heck'd make this group a lot quieter ;-)
- tex
JD Powers surveys are stupid. They have very little to do with actual quality and much more to do with "customers' perceptions". Read about it on their own web page:
It seems like we go through this every time...so I suppose if Saab ended up at the top of the list (ie, the fewest user reported problems), it would still be worthless.
From what I've seen, other quality reports indicate similar poor quality amongst Saab models. It's harder to argue that these reports are worthless when they, using various other methodologies, report similar poor results.
Where does the dealer enter the picture? It's simply a measure of how many problems end users reports back to the dealer. While no measurement of quality will ever be perfect, it sure is a good proxy.
While I love my Saab (and 04 aero 93ss), it surely has not been because of its outstanding quality. I had to bring it back to the dealer several times to fix numerous issues with the car (actually I've been very happy with my dealer...they've bent over backwards to help with the problems).
As of late, the car has generally been much better after the repeated fixes at the dealer, the suspension is still a frequent source squeaks and squeals. The front struts have already been replaced with brand new ones once, but still produce noise. I'm considering just biting the bullet and swapping on the Konis with the H&R springs. The interior is filled with little squeaks and rattles, a further sign of poor design quality.
- tex
Yeah, pretty much. Just like consumer reports, far as I'm concerned. A Saab buyer will complain about things that a POS econobox buyer won't. Yet the count of issues is all they look at, not the real severity of them.
Expectations vs. execution. You expect the back seat of a POSbox to rattle, so you don't complain when it does.
Again you need to balance severity of issues vs. expectations.
But again, things that a Saab owner will report, and which a, say, Kia owner, will not. Sense of perspective, that's what I'm saying. That said, I like my c900 more than anything Saab has made since.
I love it. Does it mean we can pick up used ones even cheaper now?
Cue some arguments about the merits or otherwise of the survey...
Anyway, quieter isn't always busier...
Yes, and? My expectation and perception doesn't change if I'm driving a Ford, Fiat, Skoda, Honda or Saab.
I'd be just as upset if a new £25,000 9-5 were to prove less reliable than a £6,000 Ka.
In this respect it's entirely fair and accurate...
Perhaps. Or, and this may be a bleeding edge statement, maybe the cars need to go back to the dealers more often...
Wrong. If anything new has any issue, problem or unexplained quirk, the owner complains.
If nothing gets done about it, the complaint escalates.
This "people of a cheaper car don't expect the same service" argument is touted by those people who want to feel slightly smug in that they bought a dearer vehicle. It just doesn't hold the water you'd like to think.
Of my three last cars, one was the cheapest in the range (heh the highest specification model in the line up), one was a middle / lower specification and the 9-3, which is the SE, so I suppose in theory that makes it the highest standard specification of three. All as used buys though.
I have had the same expectations of all three. No rattles, always start, always stop.
Results compared with expectations? "Swings and roundabouts" as the British like to say. In some respects the Ka far outshines the Accord and the 9-3 and knocked my expectations into a cocked hat. In other ways the Accord was better than my expectations.
All three have had the odd rattle, except, the Ka had the least, then the Accord and the 9-3 has something in the glovebox that's annoying me.
Absolutely no you don't and yes you do.
Yes, this is a weakness of the project. It's unfortunate. However, by the same token, being satisfied is not disimilar to being pregnant. You are or you aren't.
I disagree. Completely.
Your wrong is wrong. Allow me to explain. I just bought something on eBay. It arrived today. Several of the pieces are damaged, and that meets my expectation. Therefore there is no complaint.
Dude if I wanted to feel smug I wouldn't be driving a 1986 Saab 900 base model with the wheel arches rusted away. I didn't complain that the trim pieces were broken on said arches, because they _meet my expectations_.
You use "you" but I think you mean "me" because you certainly don't mean "you" as in _this_ me.
That's just silly. Satisfaction is undoubtedly an analog measurement, not a binary condition.
That's fine; you're free to be wrong. Completely. If your analogy of "almost pregnant" is as good as you can get to back up your point, you may want to reconsider it.
Re: when something is cheap, people don't expect so much...
I used to work for a company that produced both "premium" & "mass market / budget" alternatives of their products... I know that the budget market complained a LOT more than the premium end of the market if they found a problem... In fact, I would say the premium / custom end of any market are more forgiving of faults (as long as they feel they are getting *special* service... But of course this has nothing to do with Saab!
If you knew that it was broken then that's fair enough, but if you were buying something described as "like new" then you *should* be disappointed and dissatisfied.
The point here is if one buys an item new, one expects it to work as new. Period. It doesn't matter if I'm buying a £3 widget designed to make chirrup noises or a £30 widget designed to make chirrup noises. One may make a much richer sound than the other but both make a chirrup noise...
Yes I know, I didn't make myself clear: I don't believe this is the case here. It's what's usually touted by my BMW or Mercedes-owning colleagues at the office, "oh, sure, you expect the odd teething problem like a broken engine, _I_ have Mercedes Benz, I expect perfection..."
"You" as in "one."
It can be both. One is or one is not. One can be slightly satisfied or very satisfied. This particular test shows the results in absolute terms. The UK questionairre gives you a choice as I recall, certainly, for earlier years.
Wrong? No, differ. On the one hand you believe the difference between right and wrong is essentially black and white but on the other, satisfied is a shade of grey..?
There's at least one group of people who believe if you've spent more money on it, you're happier to accept its faults rather because you've spent more on it...
I would second that on the dealer. My dealer's service quality has went down the tubes over the past year.
I have Konis and H&R on my Contour SVT. You won't be disappointed.
Dan
Yeah, but Lexus owners are not POS buyers. Most manufacturers still don't get it: statistical process control and continuous improvement. It worked wonders for the US in WWII.
Dan
Brings to mind Stereos and "HDTV".
I was a participant in the Powers survey many years ago and as I recall, they hit the owner with the questions so soon after purchase that the owner knows little about quality issues yet. Several years down the road, the owner could then give a good evaluation of quality, but by then the info would be of little value.
BTW: My 1985 900 has done very well.
Look at VAG though. As an owner, a niggle that might make you complain about in an Audi A2, you might accept "for now" in a Skoda Fabia. Maybe a creaky panel, or crackling speaker.
Absolutely not, though. I'd expect both to be just as robust as the other.
I don't have high expectations, just that new stuff should be just that, as new...
I believe this survey was based on the 2003 model year cars.
- tex
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