What to do. Bad rod in Outback

I doubt it is worth it. Unless you have religioiusly maintained every aspect of the car like suspension wear points and stuff like that, the car has no rust anywhere, and there is nothing else wrong with it, I jsut can't see putting that much money into it. In the end you will have a car worth what you put into it. I'd suggest putting a junkyard engine into it. You could do it yourself for about 200 to 800 bucks depnding on teh pricing policy of the yard. Or if you have a shop do it, it would probably be 1500 or so, which would probably get you an engine that would still outlast the rest of the car.

The only wrench in the works of that plan is that engines of that era often died of HG failures, so it might be hard to find a good 2.5 liter for that year. I wonder if a more current one, or even the 2.2 liter from the legacy could b made to work without too much hassle.

Bill

My rule of thumb is that when cost of repair exceeds the book value of the car, get rid of it. No matter how much money you put in a car, if it gets wrecked or stolen, insurance company will only give you book value.

Don't know how true it is for other Subaru dealers, but my dealer makes more money selling used Subaru's than new.

Engines with a rod knock don't have long to live. Remaining life can be measured in tens of miles. I'd have another opinion before I replaced the engine. What you may have is a failing timing belt pulley. Have the oil pressure tested with a gauge. If still good then probably do not have a failing rod bearing.

Like others have said - you probably have 3 ways to go. If you can afford it, replace the car. Used or new is your choice. If you are 'poor', then perhaps a used engine OR partial/full rebuild is the only option. In addition to a junkyard engine, maybe price a short block from CCR.

Bad rod, or does it just have a case of piston-slap?

That mistake has been made before, and they can slap and run fine for a looooong time.

Dave

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay; sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the "bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys (specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about

115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still, probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

My thoughts exactly. The bottom end on a Soob is pretty bulletproof. Check oil pressure and timing belt. Was the Mechanic able to tell you which rod was noizy? If it's a rod, and he's good, he can tell you.

If it's a rod, the noize will change significantly when one plug wire is shorted to ground - and only on the cyl with the bad rod.

It will also generally knock more on coast than when under load, but that is not ALWAYS the case.

One of the characteristics of piston slap is it is more audible when the engine is cold.

Mine goes away completely after a 20 minute drive. On some though, it will re-appear if you hit the gas hard.

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still, probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

Rod Knock and piston slap are two totally different animals, with different causes, symptoms, and prognosis. Poth require the engine to come apart for repair, but that's about as far as the similarity goes.

An engine with mild piston slap when cold may run another 250,000 km without any damage - like my first Aerostar did.

An engine with a rod knock WILL die in a short time - perhaps if you are lucky a few hundred or a few thousand kilometers.

ALL dealers make more money selling used cars of all makes. In NJ most dealers mark up tradeins $4k or so. New cars can be had for near invoice with a little dealing and research.

My rule of thumb is that when cost of repair exceeds the book value of the car, get rid of it. No matter how much money you put in a car, if it gets wrecked or stolen, insurance company will only give you book value.

Don't know how true it is for other Subaru dealers, but my dealer makes more money selling used Subaru's than new.

Every car dealer makes more on used than new. :-)

To my ear it's more of a tick than a knock. It quiets under load and quiets when I take my foot off the gas. It's noisiest when I just press the gas when moving -- not pulling and not coasting.

I"m wondering the same thing. It sounds more like a ticking to me than a knock. Mostly when just pressing the gas when moving, not when coasting or under acceleration.

I think I'm going to get a third opinion. The problem is the car runs so damn good except for the noise. Good mileage and good acceleration. If I was deaf I wouldn't know it has a problem. And, it sounds more like a valve than a rod, but two mechanics have told me now, just from listening, it's internal. Maybe it is the timing belt. I wonder how much they will charge me to just do an inspection. Otherwise, if it is going to die, I may as well drive it until it does. How much more harm can I do?

Very hard to find a decent assortment of AWD used cars in Colorado in the winter. :-)

Thanks for the hopeful comments.

Sounds more like a piston slap - or a sticky wrist pin. I'd be AWFULL tempted to try a dose of Marvel Mystery Oil or Rislone to see if you have a varnished up wrist pin causing the piston too tip. Keep engine speed down in the meantime. Is it worse cold or hot?

A lot, if they are gonna do it right, 'cause the timing belt center cover has to come off, This means removing the radiator, accessories and associated belts, and the harmonic balance pulley. Halfway thru a timing belt job at that point :-P

One thing: valve noise or piston slap, you can generally drive the car for a good while with little apparent change in the noise, and probably little risk of catastrophic failure. Rod knock will get rapidly worse (as in over a couple tanks of gas or less), and then generally fail spectacularly.

_Bad_ rod knock sounds like someone hammering vigorously on the engine block in time with the crank rotation, and is generally loudest while the engine speed is falling. By that, I mean that when you rev the engine the sound gets a bit quieter; when you let go of the throttle it gets LOUD; clackety, clackety, clack!!! It's an alarming sound, and you will not be tempted to continue driving your car once it gets to this point.

They're out there, just 'pensive. Some places, such as Boulder are much worse. Try the Colorado Springs or Pueblo craigslist.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

Thanks. It started as a rather quiet tick, mostly when cold. Now it really doesn't matter cold or hot, and it gets really cold here at night and early morning. Starts up fine.