Fuel Vaporization and fuel economy

Hi, my name's Cody and I think I'll make this place a regualr hangout. I'm 16 and have been driving for over 9 months. School is about 12
miles from my house. I drive a Dodge Neon so gas isn't that bad of a problem, though I'd like to get better gas mileage. I stumbled on this concept called "fuel vaporization." It's been here since the early 20th century. The process involves turning the liquid gas into a vapor (dry gas) before it hits the intake manifold. This would use a lot less gas. On a 400 cubic inch v8 it was said to have gotten 78 miles per gallon!
Now I have a few websites on this: http://tinyurl.com/d26g6
http://www.rexresearch.com/ogle/1ogle.htm
http://www.himacresearch.com/books/secret8.html
http://tinyurl.com/7tfbo
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader $26512
http://www.get113to138mpg.com /
I know I don't have much experience with cars and their emchanics and that's why I come to you guys. Do you guys think this is possible to fabricate something like this and you think it would get really good gas mileage using this process.
--
cody_e
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:40:25 -0800, cody_e

I have a way to dry out water before it hits the faucet at the kitchen sink. Since I've made this discovery, man you should see how my water bill dropped like a rock.
go back to sleep kid
Lg
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:40:25 -0800, cody_e

I suggest that you sit down with your science teacher, and discuss the issue of temperature of combustion with an extremely lean mixture (such as the one you describe), and the properties of the materials used in the construction of an automobile engine.
Anyone can get 75 MPG from a 400 CID V8. But not for very long....
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:23:15 -0600, Raymond J. Henry

I once achieved 3,527 miles/gallon...but not for very long.... I had just turned off the engine and was coasting into my parking lot. Now if I could only figure out a Way!
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wrote:

You don't need to "really" figure out a way Larry. Just say you did and come up with a really good line of bullshit and a marketing scheme and a bunch of dumb asses will send you their money. I doubt you could live with yourself after that but apparently a lot of people can. Bob
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Like the people who sell the fuel line magnets, that are supposed to take *hydrocarbon clusters* and break them up into *hydrocarbon molecules.*
There otta be a Law. I even see this kind of $hit being sold at Harbor Freight. Buyer Beware.
Lg
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No I'm serious they use this technique with natural gas engines and hydrogen engines. Check out the links. It's entirely possible.
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cody_e
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:43:08 -0800, cody_e

===================================================================excerpt as follows: =================================================================== From Keelynet at http://www.keelynet.com 01/31/99 - A History of Vapor Carburetors by Robert Felix Parascience #2, Winter,1998 ISSN 1464-6935 Domra Publications 65 Constable Road CORBY Northamptonshire NN18ORT United KingdomSubscriptions & Info: Tel/Fax: (01536) 201250 email:domra.prestel.co.uk Editor: Gerry Connelly NOTICE: This article may be downloaded and copied to BBS without let or hindrance; no part of the contents may be changed. Material in this heading concerning its printing/publication must not be changed or deleted. Readers who attempt to build a vapour carburetor apparatus are encouraged to add their commentaries/drawings as a secondary file. This file must be so labelled as a seperate addition in the writer's own words. Air pollution from internal combustion engines is caused by unburned hydrocarbons,i.e.pollution found in the exhaust. Only gasoline vapor will explode, droplets end as pollution. Using heat or mechanical agitation to more completely vaporize the gasoline before it enters the intake manifold can result in more efficient operation and a reduction in unburned hydrocarbons. A list of over 500 'hidden' US patents using heat and mechanical action to vaporize gasoline is given; also instructions to access the US Patent Office over the Internet and download patents. =======================================================================end excerpt ======================================================================= Unburned hydrocarbons, are pretty much addressed by the EGR system in modern day vehicles. The EPA sets limits on unburned hydrocarbons, and vehicles that exceed the limit are not allowd registration ( license plates ) until they are brought into specifications.
You were saying?
Nevertheless...there are X amount of BTU's per gallon of gasoline, and there is Y mass to a vehicle, including rolling and internal friction. It is an INERTIA calculation. A simple physics inertia calculation, figuring in that up to 60% of the BTU's are lost through convection, radiation, and conduction.
Lg
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:20:54 -0600, Lawrence Glickman

I might add there are aerodynamics involved also, that eat up energy from a gallon of gasoline. There are many many factors, but it all comes down to this:
inertia friction wind resistance heat losses
More efficient translation of BTU's into work pushing on pistons, and less lost in the form of the above, but there are limits as to what can be done when you are moving a 2 ton vehicle around on wheels.
But don't let me rain on your Parade. Go for it.
Lg
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Keep dreaming and hoping and thinking and believing and experimenting, Cody. Quite a number of useful inventions have been developed by people with just your traits. I think it was Thomas Edison who said when confronted by someone taunting him with a 'failed' experiment: "It was no failure. It was a contribution to knowledge, as now we know yet another way it won't work."(or some similar words). Although there have been many untrue claims and hoaxes concerning fuel mileage, dreams have superceded many that worked out well. A couple of buddies of mine and I, while at Gen. Mtrs. Institute in Flint, Michigan around 1950's, joked around about futuristic ideas. One of them was the use of individual solenoids per cylinder to open intake valves at precise, electrically-controlled moments so as to accurately monitor/deliver fuel to each cylinder. Little did we know that Corvette would in our lifetimes develop the LT1 engine--didn't use solenoids, but did use electronically-controlled injectors to deliver fuel to each cylinder at precisely-optimal moments and amounts so as to produce both phenomenal power AND great fuel mileage. Good luck and welcome to this group. You'll learn a lot here and maybe one day contribute greatness to this field that we all love so dearly. My 2-cents' worth--and sometimes worth every dime! s
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wrote:

IOW, "don't let Reality slap you upside the head and wake you from your sleep."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/01/20/literacy.college.students.ap/index.html
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....and avail yourself of all the disciplined, learned thought processes which can be absorbed at an accelerated rate through that system we call education.... (Sorry, LG, forgot to remind him of that; guess I ASSumed it was self-evident. Thanks for the reminder.).... s
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wrote:

==============================================================> ....and avail yourself of all the disciplined, learned thought processes

You are Right in your encouragement, as I have recently finished reviewing the experiments of the Wright Brothers at the National Archives.
Dare to Believe.
Also, expect an exceptionally tough journey, as most of the planet has already tried to address many of these current day problems with the best of brainpower and lots of cash.
Great Things are happening, but at the consortium level, rather than the individual level. For some reason, in this New Age of Information, the group-think and the Venture Capitol are what moves projects along. The single guy out back in the shed tragically seems to be on the short end of the stick in the ability to compete with the Mega Global Corporate Conspiracy.
Is there a carburetor that can get 100 miles to a gallon? OF COURSE THERE IS! It's out in my garage right now, on my lawnmower instead of my bicycle! All I have to do is make the switch! Voila! 100 miles/gallon.
Well...I admire this kids chutzpah anyhow. Dare to Dream. As an anecdote, a friend's grandfather developed the first automatic transmission for Chrysler. He never got the credit, he got a little money, the car company made millions/billions, he got a *few bucks* and a pat on the back. It is called "Intellectual Property of the Company." IIRC it was called the HydraMatic transmission or somesuch.
So if you're going to invent something, do it on your own time. And use your own resources. If they company you work for has any of their assets involved, you don't own the invention, the company does. And if you use any of their patented technology in your work, they also own the invention.
Lg
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Hey, LG, I was fortunate enough to work in a Chev Assy Plant's suggestions department, where aN employee would receive something like an amt. of $ equal to up to 6 months' savings it offered the company--up to a maximum, like $2500(I really don't remember, but quite a paltry sum for big money-makers/savers.) If no monetary value, it'd be subjective. I read the suggestion submitted by a worker on final assembly in the truck dept. which paid an employee only subjective monetary rewards. Engineers had been working for years(?) trying to stop the old air brakes from *arting when applied/released. His proposal read something like"If they would stretch that return spring or make it longer, it wouldn't make that noise when you used the brakes". He received the maximum $. I always felt they treated him fairly *under the circumstances*, BUT I felt the max. was way low on his suggestion. Guess who won? Chev, of course. s
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wrote:

I think if you invent something that is totally unrelated to the industry you are employed in, and do it on your own time, you're in a better position to claim title to the invention than your employer is. All this is usually spelled out in the fine print when you sign up for the job.
Most of the machines I worked on were so complicated, that the only suggestions I would be able to offer would be something like "why the hell did you ever built this nightmare to begin with?" I rather doubt that would have added anything to my bank account. As a reminder, I worked on factory robots that assembled circuit boards. And other factory production machines. Too complicated. In fact, so complex, that entire teams of engineers would be responsible for ONE part of the design, and there of course would be a master group responsible for the integration of it all. I am surprised any of this stuff worked. It not only worked at blinding speed, but with incredible precision and accuracy. Wave to Japan and Germany for this *stuff.* None of it was invented or assembled in the USA.
Which might explain why FORD is going to be laying off 30,000 employees and closing 14 plants in the USA and Canada by 2012.
These assembly robots, guided by computers and video cameras, were accurate to within the width of a human hair, placing components at up to 10/second. Humans were kept around for programming them, and feeding them components. With these *things,* you get better, faster, cheaper as the economies of scale take over. It is the only way to build 1,000,000 telephones or TV sets a year at 1 plant. Humans can't work that fast or accurately, to keep up with consumer demand.
What is left for us? Repairing them when they break, and sweeping the floor around them to keep them clean. I don't even do that anymore, thank my lucky stars.
Sad story but true, at Caterpillar, the *new hires* are being drafted at $10/hour instead of the original $20/hour that used to be the starting wage at Decatur, Illinois. And people are supposed to raise a family on this?
Between the robots taking over production and assembly, and corporations slashing workforces to compete with overseas markets, I don't see how the USA can stay glued together much longer.
On a related note: ============================================================Line blurs for U.S. automakers in patriotic approach
By Rick Popely and Deborah Horan Tribune staff reporters Published January 23, 2006, 8:46 PM CST
When domestic automakers had their backs to the wall 25 years ago, they could count on a "Buy American" sentiment to keep some customers from defecting to fuel-efficient foreign cars.
Today, many loyal domestic vehicle owners say they would be comfortable buying an import.
Chuck Sonne, a Country Club Hills electrician, drives a 1997 Chevrolet pick-up and has owned two Fords in the past, but asked if he would only buy an American vehicle in the future, Sonne said, "No, whatever runs better and is cheaper."
As Fordwhich announced a massive restructuring Mondaytries along with struggling GM to regain market share in the U.S., it faces an uphill climb. Asian rivals, such as Honda, Toyota and Hyundai, are luring buyers with a relentless supply of new and compelling models.
continued at.... http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-060123automakers,1,7069893.story?coll=chi-news-hed
Lg
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Well this could give American auto makers the edge if they'd adapt this technology. Honestly I think it's BS that all those employees have to lose their jobs over MANAGEMENT mistakes. I know it takes 3 years to plan everything out for a car but 3 years ago gas was on the rise. Managment kept telling the workers to crank out SUV's despite the rising gas prices and lagging sales. Maybe if I find another way that's unpatented I could get a patent and then get this thing cranking out in cars.
I'm pretty sure this is possible. I've been researching it a ton. They have been using this technology in tractors at the turn of last century. Most variations were created by 1 guy messing around in the shop or shed.
--
cody_e
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On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:23:20 -0800, cody_e

I don't know what you can do with a fuel injected vehicle, that atomizes the fuel as it squirts out the nozzle.
You have to get a certain _amount_ ( quantity ) of fuel into any given particular cylinder in thousandths of a second. If your engine is turning at 2,000 revolutions per minute, you don't have all day to get the required amount of fuel into the cylinder before the compression stroke begins.
This means...it has to go in as an atomized liquid. Less concentration of the fuel will cause the engine to always run too lean.
Think of the cylinder as the rocket nozzle. You have to keep fuel flowing at a minimum rate to keep the thing providing optimum thrust. Anything less, and the rocket goes nowhere...it is just an expensive candle.
Your proposal to pre-atomize the fuel may work for a carbureted vehicle, but the idea behind the injector is to get as much fuel as required ( controlled by pulse width ) into the cylinder in a very very short interval. The more fuel and air you can cram into the cylinder in a given interval, the more energy you can get out of each power stroke.
Lg
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kid, come up with a decent layout and give it a shot. You need help, drop me a line. This country needs fresh ideas if its going to go anywhere in this area. Not saying your ideas are valid or not, but your thinking and thats great.
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cody_e wrote:

What lagging sales? Sales didn't start lagging until last year, when gas prices were up. 3 years ago gas prices were pretty low. Dec 2002 average retail prices was 1.316 /gallon, a buck lower than it is now.
See http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html
I wish I was working at Ford and was getting laid off. They get a pretty sweet deal for 2 years. 90% of their pay, and they can go and get another job in the meantime.
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cody_e wrote:

A biosolid to vapour convertor is probably a better conversion for your Neon. You basically just shit in your fuel tank and then turn the key. The more passengers you can get to shit in your fuel tank the better your mileage will be.
Ford and GM could use this technology to compete with the upcoming Chinese auto manufacturers.
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