Hydrogen-Boosted Internal Combustion Engines -- Scam Or Not ???

Yes and no. When running lean, there is a much higher probability of mis-fire. If the mixture does indeed light off, it will burn very hot and clean (apart from high nitrogen oxides). But the high probability of misfire tends to kinda offset the gains.

Being a Chrysler guy and having lived through the "Lean Burn" years, I can say that the basic idea is sound enough but implementation is a bear (and especially bad when trying to do it with a carburetor instead of EFI). Lean-tuned engines will turn in very good fuel economy, and it can be done without sacrificing too much performance IF you can enrich sufficiently on demand. But it puts a lot of stress on the mechanical side of things. Combustion chamber temperatures get sky-high, exhaust valve temperatures get high (although downstream exhaust temperatures may go down because there's less "tail burning" outside the exhaust valve). Pre-ignition pinging is just a way of life, and the ignition system has to be in perfect working order to successfully light off the lean mixture all the time. Once a system like that gets some age on it, it will simply not work as well as a "normal" system at a similar age and with similar maintenance. That's why just about any Lean Burn Mopar still on the road today has had a regular carburetor and ignition system swapped in place of the original Lean Burn computer.

Reply to
Steve
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I would say usually there are no gains any way. Any perception that running lean burns cleaner is because the catalytic converter has more oxygen to do its job. Without the cat CO and HC start to go up as soon as the engine goes lean.

I never heard of anybody that got good gas mileage with the mid to late 70's chrysler lean burn technology. Not that Chrysler system was any sort of standard by which one should conclude anything at all, but if I recall the requirements for new car mileage estimates was started just before Chrysler started the lean burn nonsense. And the official mileage estimates all reflected a huge drop in mpg's for lean burn engines over there previous incarnation. The actual real world mileage was even much worse than the sticker estimates.

Well sure if all you do is run lean when there is no load on the engine - like when you are coasting up to the next red light.

That part is correct and that modification usually results in an immediate 5-10 mpg jump in gas mileage as well as improved driveability.

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Reply to
jim

The explosive character of gasoline is a very hardy myth. It occurs but rarely. A split fuel tank can occasionally cause a gasoline fire but fatalities from such a fire are rare save for the execution of a person and an induced fire to hide the evidence. But what can be done when a lye solution is splattered over the road and sidewalks? Batteries can be split and sulfuric acid released but those batteries are quite hardy and don't even require a metal reinforced container. Usually the battery splits and leaks out the acid in situ. And there isn't a great deal of it in any event. Not quite what would happen when you used water and an active metal to produce hydrogen and a strong base as well. Much more lye or similar base solution would be found in a vehicle using such as a source for making hydrogen as a "fuel". Compared to the small amount of sulfuric acid the ratio would be quite large.

Now I've demonstrated the perspective you invoked. And as such your argument is found wanting.

FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

If you want to get rid of the lye just wash it off with vinegar, or hose it down with CO2 etc.

Reply to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

ITs all a matter of degree. Going just a few percent lean of stoich lowers HC and CO even without a cat. Going further does what you say.

Then you didn't know them when they were working right. I was there when they were new and very common. 23 MPG out of a square brick of a v8 Fury was no slouch in those days and I've done just that routinely back in the day. The best of all was the lightweight slant-6 "feather Duster" that could and did turn in real-world 30+ MPG on the highway. The whole problem is that it wouldn't STAY that good without a lot of care, particularly the ignition side of things.

Only half the gain. You can run a few percent lean under any light-load condition- say cruising at a steady 65 mph. Modern EFI engines do this quite effectively, they just don't advertise it in the sales literature. The savings add up.

No and yes (assuming the LB was WORKING when replaced.) LB systems had mediocre driveability even when working perfectly (there was always an annoying dead spot as you begin to roll on power following steady-state cruise, such as coming to the base of a hill). But they were nothing if not efficient when working. 5-10 MPG jump!?!? FORGET that, unless the thing was horrifically out of tune (which, granted, many were when these things started to get replaced.)

And FYI, after "Lean Burn" became a dirty word and negative marketing in the late 70s, they did stop putting the Lean Burn stickers on the valve covers. But the same engine management system was used until the last M-body went out of production in 1989, and the M-bodies were quite efficient for such a large and boxy vehicle.

Reply to
Steve

I could pull 21 with my 78 Super Coupe on a trip with 4 people and luggage.

True that.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Yeah, we'll have big tanks of vinegar stationed on every street corner to wash off all those pedestrians and auto passengers before their skin falls off from lye attack from a street collision. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

Just like we have for washing that gasoline from their bodies now?

Reply to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

In case you don't know this. Gasoline getting splashed on you is uncomfortable and may sting a bit, BUT simply wash it off and you will be fine.

As opposed to the fact that if you get a bath in Lye you will look a lot like the wicked witch and you can literally watch as your skin and flesh melt off from the reaction of the Lye on your skin. It is a highly concentrated and powerful caustic compound.

BIG difference.

Reply to
Steve W.

Having spilled gasoline on my hands on a few occasions I know that it evaporates quite rapidly. It is not a good thing to do as some is absorbed into the body but in those rare cases when a person has his clothes soaked in gasoline it is just a matter of keeping them away from a flame. Never offer a cigarette to a person who has just been doused with gasoline. In other words we leave this prospect to be dealt with by emergency personnel. But waiting around for the emergency people to arrive while soaked in sodium hydroxide solution is not quite the same as keeping away from flames while waiting for them to arrive and save you from your dousing in gasoline. Very different degree of hazard indeed. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

We are talking car crash scenarios. What percentage of people in crashes get covered in gasoline?

Reply to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

And you got this gasoline on your hands in a car crash?

Reply to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

As a teenager I worked in a filling station. One day the hose broke as I was pumping gas, and got absolutely drenched from just above the waist on down. It was really uncomfortable. I got out of the uniform and put a clean one on, tried to scrub myself down in the station's bathroom, but that was not enough- I had to go home and take a bath. Still, never been drenched with gas except that time- never in a car accident.

Reply to
Don Stauffer in Minnesota

I had a friend who told me somehow he got a faceful when he was pumping gas. He said it made his eyes burn like hell.

Reply to
Matt

No, I think the amounts are rather similar. As I said, about a pint of the caustic solution, and I don't think it is very strong.

One thing I think is true about caustic is that it doesn't cause much immediate pain when in contact with the skin, so you may not know your skin is turning to soapy leather or so. That can be a problem if you touch your eyes. You are aware immediately When you get a drop of strong sulfuric on the skin.

Other than that, I don't see much difference in degree of hazard between a hydroxy converter and a lead-acid battery. Just douse the spill with plenty of water.

I think somehow you have acquired caustophobia.

Reply to
Matt

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Hard to say. I doubt that statistics are available about such percentages. However most car crashes do not involve either explosion or ignition of the gasoline that may be spilled. This is contrary to the fantasies of motion pictures of course. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

What difference does that make. Gasoline spilled on a person is not a pleasant experience for that person. However, save for some common atrocities in less than civilized places, most people are not immolated following a dousing with some gasoline. I've had both kinds of accidents an inadvertant spilling of gasoline and an inadvertant spilling of a solution of NaOH on my skin. Whereas the significant damage from gasoline required a further accident (ignition) the significant damage from a solution of NaOH requires no further accent save failure to quickly wash away the liquid. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

I haven't been following this thread closely. The original topic was hydrogen-boosted combustion. Assuming you are still discussing the same thing, the amount of water needed in a typical system that derives hydrogen from water is about a quart per 1000 miles. How far is your grocery store?

-jim

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Reply to
jim

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One of the worst (save burns after ignition) disasters of gasoline dousing is the absorbtion of tetraethyl lead into the skin. The stuff is a nasty poison. It is no longer used in the US and so we don't even have it in the atmosphere as we used to when (C2H5)4Pb was employed years ago. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

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Not surprising. Eyes are very sensitive. Lots of stuff cause great discomfort when the eyes are exposed to them. FK

Reply to
Fred Kasner

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