Outside edge of front tires stairstepping

You don't need to replace the tires to do the alignment.

I must not have made the philosophical argument clear if you say that, so let me just outline a WORST CASE scenario (philosophically speaking).

1. Assume alignment is fine (for the worst-case scenario philosophically)
2. Assume front tires only are wearing on the outside edges (feathering)

How much does a brand new tire cost, mounted? About $100.

How much does an alignment check cost, on sale, where I live? About $100.

That's a philosophical tradeoff of 1 mounted tire to 1 alignment check.

The logic is thus: A. If the alignment is obviously bad, then it will cause excess wear to EVERY tire ever put on the front axle, so, of course, you have the alignment fixed because of the obvious cost:benefit ratio.

B. However, if the alignment is actually ok, then it's not cost effective to have the alignment checked since the best you will do is save partial wear to the tires but at worst, you just threw away an entire brand new tire ($100) just to have the alignment checked.

My point is that checking the alignment costs as much money as does a brand new tire, so, where would you rather put your money IF the alignment is actually OK?

The way you're looking at this, there's no point in doing anything. Once the tires are feathered, there is nothing you can do - they are essentially ruined. If they are not dangerously worn, and not noisy enough yet to drive you nuts, then just forget about it. You can do an alignment when you finally replace the tires.

At the same time, it would be nice to know that your front suspension and steering parts are not dangerously worn, and that should be checked in an alignment. But it's your car, your life, and your money, so do whatever you want. You've gotten solid advice here, you just have to make a decision.

Checking the alignment does NOTHING to damage or waste a tire. Get it in and have the alignment checked before the tires you moved from the rear to the front get damaged, and then adjust your tire pressure up to 5PSI higher than the plackard recommended pressure. Can almost guarantee a confirmed good alignment and higher pressures WILL solve the problem

No they don't. Alignments SAVE the tires.

No, the heart transplant has, statistically, better than an 80% chance of solving a heart problem, while back surgery has only something less than 30% chance of fixing a back problem.

If you are running $100 tires on a 4 runner you are not running the right tires.

You are WAY out to lunch with your "philosophizing"

Just FIX it.

Put 70 series LT tires on and run at elevated pressure. You do NOT want "passenger car" tires on that vehicle. It is a "light truck" and should have "light truck" or at least SUV tires on it..

Take the word of a retired former Toyota Service Manager, who has also had experience in Rallye driving. The firstand simplest thing to do is AIR UP the tires by at least 5 PSI. The next SMART thing to do is get the alignment verified. When the tires need replacement replace with a heavier duty tire - an LT rated tire is recommended on that vehicle, and if it has the 265 65 tires on it, fo to 245 70 instead. Reducing the width of rubber on the road will reduce the instability of the tread on hard turns.

It's not a race car - you don't need wide meats on it.

You can have an alignment CHECKED - if no adjustment is required, for a whole lot less than $100 if you get it to the right shop. Also, you do not need a "4 wheel" alighnment. The toe in can be easily checked, even without a fancy alignment machine, by anyone worthy to call himself a mechanic. Less than half an hour's work either way if no adjustment is required. Either way, I'd pay to MAKE SURE rather than take a chance on having to keep throwing tires at it.

That said - in YOUR SITUATION, the first thing I would do is check and verify tire pressures, and AIR UP 5 PSI.

Add some negative camber to move the tires closer in at the top, correct. That would place some extra weight on the inner edge of the tires and reduce the amount of wear at the outer edge.

Correct. The higher the speed rating and the higher the load rating the more rubber and plies are in the sidewalls. That makes the sidewall stiffer. That will work to prevent the edges from trying to roll under causing the wear you are seeing. The drawback is that the stiffer tires reduce ride quality.

Yes. Raising the air pressure will also stiffen the tire, but it can cause issues of it's own.

You really don't have a clue on this. No tires will be wasted. Keep in mind though, some damage is done and nothing will make it better, just stop it from getting worse.

There is no way to eliminate the possibility it is the alignment unless you have it checked. Definitely should be done before getting new tires or putting the rear tires up front.

OTOH, I'd not be driving up and own steep twisting roads on $100 tires either.

Thanks for the advice of harder pressure which I will certainly do!

I agree with you on the lack of need for width.

It has 225s on there now, which is the OEM tire. Nothing wider than that is needed I agree.

The rest is looks but it's an SUV for heaven's sake so all that low-profile stuff is for posers.

Is that really a sound logical statement?

Here's my super simple logic.

• The tires meet all USA legal specs for the vehicle including exceeding the load range (105S versus 102S).

You imply that a tire that meets or exceeds the specs for the car is unsafe, just because I paid $100 for that tire (mounted & balanced).

Maybe I'm missing something critical but I can't find the logic in your argument?

That's the HOLY GRAIL of services if it exists.

What would be perfect is a "free alignment check" and no charge if the alignment doesn't need adjusting - but that may never happen for two reasons.

• Alignment is a range (it's not just a single number), and,

• Nobody offers that anyway (that I can find).

Second-best (and perfectly acceptable) is a $25 alignment check-only, just like I go to diagnostic-only smog stations, where all they do is MEASURE the front toe and front camber (which is all that I need).

I've been reading up on alignment where the Toyota only has front camber/caster (which is one setting) and toe, so that's all I need are those two things.

If I can find a shop who will do those two CHECKS for around $25 that would make logical sense.

But to pay for an entire mounted tire just to save on a mounted tire seems like throwing good money away logically as it was aligned two years ago (and at that time, it needed it because the front left was wearing really fast).

Now they're wearing evenly.

I googled how to check toe and LOTS of people seem to be using string. All I need is to tie a string to the center point and then cut the ends off on each side at the center of the tire tread in front and in back at the midpoint of the wheel axle.

That's a cost of four strings!

I completely understand and agree that if EVERY tire was wearing unusually fast (which is what happened two years ago to the left front tire), then a $100 alignment makes perfect logical sense.

But to pay the cost of an entire 40,0000-mile tire just for a remote chance of getting a thousand or two thousand miles out of the process seems like a horrid cost:benefit ratio to me.

A $100 alignment is an entire $100 tire completely wasted (in terms of opportunity cost) if the $100 alignment is not needed.

Here's what I definitely will do given the really sound advice.

• Since I never check PSI, I'll start using 40psi (35 is normal)

• Next time I'll get stiffer sidewalls (105S instead of 102S)

• I will rotate every change of seasons (I cross hatch with no spare)

• I will take the downhills slower (if I can but I'm always the slowest)

• I will look for a toe/camber-caster only check around town

To me, if a $25 toe/camber-caster only check existed, it would be a no brainer. But to definitely throw away a perfectly good $100 40K-mile tire in opportunity cost just to possibly save a couple thousand miles of wear on two tires seems not like an obvious cost:benefit logical decision of a $100 alignment.

I agree with you that the advice is "solid" here.

• It could be normal given the steep slow many curves, or,

• It could be both the camber and toe is too positive.

The only way to tell whether that's the case is to sink $100 into an alignment.

I don't think it's at the level of "dangerously worn" though but you seem to think so (but on what evidence?).

That all sounds like in the right direction!

• higher air pressure to reduce "roll" (maybe 36psi to 41 psi)

• less positive camber & less positive caster to reduce feathering

• stiffer sidewalls (using higher load range numbers) than OEM

• less wide tread contact patch (it's got the OEM 225s on it now)

No, I have no reason to think that. What I did say is that they are ruined, and nothing can change that, even if they are still usable and safe. If you rotate the tires, you'll just ruin the back tires, too. The feathering itself does not make them dangerous, but they will become noisy, if they aren't already.

Camber and caster give you stability at speed. Changing those outside specs can lead to unintended consequences. A small amount of positive camber at the front is normal. With no camber possible at the rear due to a solid live axle, positive camber at the front reduces cornering power at the front relative to the rear. This will result in a slight *understeer* and this is good for straight line stability. Reducing your camber angles at the front will likely result in an oversteering car. This can be dangerous. The caster angle creates self aligning torque. A reduction in caster will make the car less stable. The car steering geometry specs will have been designed to make your car safe to drive in all circumstances. In effect, a compromise. If you want to make changes to factory specs, you really need to know what you are doing and have a clearly expressed goal. Steering geometry is at best a compromise. A change for the better in one area may well make another area more dangerous with regard to vehicle handling.

The logic is *you get what you pay for*.

Cheap tyres do not perform as well as good quality tyres. I never buy cheap tyres for my car(s). When the OEMs wear out, I usually fit Michelins which I have found are not a great deal dearer than the OEM, and in some cases cheaper, but they grip like babyshit on a blanket. To me, grip on the road is a factor worth paying for. If you buy tyres on price alone, you are doing yourself a disservice.

The specs are almost always a *range* so there's room to be at one end or the other, isn't there?

For the most part this is true although I have a car that handles much better when it's 2-5 psi below the number on the door. So try a bit more air and feel what happens. It will likely help.... but make sure it does.

Also... let me point out that some people are very fond of putting all-terrain tires with aggressive tread on SUVs, and then they wonder why the handling on the road is poor. This happened to a friend of mine; the tire place sold her some tires that would have been a very good choice offroad, and she wondered why her rear-end was hopping so much off the line. Going back to proper road tires helped a lot.

--sctt

I have already added a few psi which I actually *like* how it feels. But of course I'm aware of the butt dyno effect (when I wax my car and change the oil, it 'feels' faster too so I know that such things are subjective). :)

I agree with you but this is a 2wd which has never been off the shoulder of the road, so, I don't need poser tires. I treat it like a car.

I wish there was some good way of testing tires out beforehand to "feel" them but it's just impossible. The best you can do is ask friends and read reviews, but everyone has different requirements and not everyone has the same vehicle driven the same way (and even if they do, they don't always say it in the reviews).

So while I like to buy my tires on pure logic, in tires most of that information is just not available to you for all the tires you might be considering.

Therefore, I often have to buy tires on published specifications alone, where the OEM specifications are my starting point (e.g., the load range and speed range and air pressure and camber and toe, etc.).

It's all homework + logic. Just like it was at school to get a perfect GPA.