Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

Forget CNG, NG (methane) is a great fuel for stationary use but not so much for mobile use since it can't be easily liquefied, hence it being CNG instead of LNG.

I would use the natural gas for a stationary backup generator and use LPG (propane/butane) AKA Autogas for mobile use since it can be easily liquefied and runs at a much lower pressures than CNG hence the storage tank is also much lighter.

There are a few companies like Roush and Bi-Phase (Schwans Foods) dabbling in liquid phase LPG injection, but it isn't dual-fuel it is dedicated LPG. As such around here the propane delivery trucks and Schwans trucks all run on LPG already.

Good luck getting a factory converted or designed LPG vehicle for non-commercial non-fleet use from any of the car companies.

Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

Try a search here,

, with fuel =3Dalternative.

CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at

3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

The technology works. I had (before Katrian) a 63 VW I had converted in the late 60's.

Propane is not a viable alternative due to cost. It's higher per mile than regular gas and seems to be tied to the cost of crude.

Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

Try a search here,

, with fuel =alternative.

CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at

3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

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Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . If you use a home based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .

Clarification: that's ~$1 LESS. Around here home can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the industry for cheap and likely to get cheaper.

Yup, for sure! We may be running out of oil, but we've still got loads and loads of natural gas. Even more, if you count the methane hydrates in the deep sea. Plus, IIRC, natural gas as a vehicle fuel produces less CO2 and particulates, if that's important to ya. =3D)

Do not dilute yourself with the notion that ANYTHING related to energy will _ever_ be cheaper than it is today.

I agree with your efforts to find a vehicle tht runs on CNG, and it should be cheaper to fuel than the petroleum alternatives, but there is no reason to believe that CNG will come down in price. Indeed, much of the attraction comes from the idea that it becomes worth the effort it takes to get it when the prices increase. If it takes $1 to get it and they can sell it for $1.50 then they won't expend much effort. But if it takes $1 to get it and they can sell it for $3, then it becomes an attractive venture to go after it.

Having said all of that, I think Toyota as an automobile manufacturer has little motovation to produce CNG-based cars. I think the CNG solutions will come from the aftermarket sources in the form of retrofit kits. I'm not sure of this, but I believe that public transit that has gone to CNG did it through retrofitting the fleet they already had, not be acquiring new vehicles that had CNG designed in. Maybe the past 5 or 10 years may have seen vehicle manufacturers specifically design public transit vehicles that were never anything but CNG, but I think that the majority of transit vehicles that are on CNG were converted, not built that way from the start.

Sure.. but here's to hoping that natural gas won't go up as quickly as oil will...

Those retrofit kits seem pretty expensive... getting a used CNG vehicle say from autotrader looks way cheaper.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to achieve 3000+ psi pressure without electricity... another survivalist scenario to consider.

Sure.. but here's to hoping that natural gas won't go up as quickly as oil will...

Those retrofit kits seem pretty expensive... getting a used CNG vehicle say from autotrader looks way cheaper.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to achieve 3000+ psi pressure without electricity... another survivalist scenario to consider.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If you can get the car to run, it should not be to difficult to have a pump that can produce the pressure needed. That seems like the small hurdle, in the grand scheme of things.

..

I dunno... 3000 psi seems like quite a bit... plus that pump won't be standard equipment. I just mention it because if you run out of gas, you can easily carry a gallon of gas to fill your tank, but that's more challenging with a CNG vehicle, ha.

Retro kids are an option but the reality is that if done properly the converter faces a *lot* of unnecessary expense. Texas has a requirement that the person doing the conversion have a state certificate which cost $5K. I am (was) qualified to build rockets for NASA (long time back) but I can't qualify for the state certificate without paying for a class and the certificate.

If this was only for a one or two off project of a personal nature I'd go the aftermarket conversion but since part of this (and enough of a part to attract attention) I need to play by the rules.

As for drilling. Some (perhaps most) of the leases have a 'must drill/produce' clause that means the producer is compelled to do so even if there is no market. At one time this was referred to as 'take or pay'.

Sure.. but here's to hoping that natural gas won't go up as quickly as oil will...

Those retrofit kits seem pretty expensive... getting a used CNG vehicle say from autotrader looks way cheaper.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to achieve 3000+ psi pressure without electricity... another survivalist scenario to consider.

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You can do like the gas pipeline companies do, run an engine on NG to drive the compressor. As for me I'm not in a survivalist mode just an economy mode.

I dunno... 3000 psi seems like quite a bit... plus that pump won't be standard equipment. I just mention it because if you run out of gas, you can easily carry a gallon of gas to fill your tank, but that's more challenging with a CNG vehicle, ha.

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Which is way I'm seeking duel fuel (CNG/GAS -- CNG/DIESEL)

fwiw I've found COTS electric pumps that will do the job for ~$1000 for a home based system. Running a fleet will take considerable more investment but the pay back is 1-2 years often less.

I dunno... 3000 psi seems like quite a bit... plus that pump won't be standard equipment. I just mention it because if you run out of gas, you can easily carry a gallon of gas to fill your tank, but that's more challenging with a CNG vehicle, ha.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An old Indian saying, told to me once by an Indian says that if you worry about all of the stupid stuff that somebody will do, you will never make anything that smart people will want. Granted, correcting the condition that is created by running out of fuel is more difficult with CNG v. gasoline, it is not an insurmountable problem, and if the operators of any motor vehicle simply paid attention to the display cluster, the gas can industry would be gone tomorrow and half the business of the Auto Club would dry up.

If you need 3k psi to deliver about 8 oz/minute, then it would not be a big problem. If you needed the same psi and wanted gallons/minute delivered, then that is an entirely different matter.

If CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) takes 3,000 psi, at the flow rates that an automobile calls for (16 gallons of gas lasts for 4 hours at 80mph, that works out to just over a cup/minute), then most of the operating pressure could come at the filling station if the system could be sealed adequately -- which represents a wheel that has been invented long ago.

I don't know anything about the mechanics of delivering CNG at a useful flow rate, but they already have CNG vehicles, so these questions must have been answered already. The reason we see CNG on fleets is that they consume enough fuel otherwise to have an ROI schedule (Return on Investment) that makes sense. A fleet operator that is buying tens of thousands of gallons of gas can see real savings in a CNG conversion that takes years to recover, but a fleet operator plans on remaining in fleet operations long after the pay-off comes. A single vehicle operator -- Regular Joes like you and I -- will not see the pay-off for a decade or more, and by then the vehicle is not worth keeping so we have to start the costly process all over again. We never realize the ROI that a fleet operator, such as public transits, will see in relatively short order.

There in lays the rub, this is not an economically viable plan for an individual to undertake.

I don't know what the math is, exactly. But it has to look sorta like the math that you use to justify the cost-up to have a Hybrid car. Ignoring the actual make and model that you might want, lets say that there is a car out there that has a gas-only and a hybrid model. The cars are identical in options and all other items, the difference being that one is a gas the other is a hybrid. The hybrid package has a cost up of $7000, for example. You are not interested in the "green quality" of the hybrid, your main interest is fuel savings. The hybrid delivers better mileage by of miles per gallon.

Your calculation is HOW LONG (in miles) WILL IT TAKE SAVE THE DOLLARS you spent to get the hybrid option.

We had this discussion a few years ago on this board, and it pencilled out that it would take something like 8 years of fuel savings to recover the premium that it takes to buy a hybrid. When we had this discussion, the Prius was probably the only hybrid available, so the conparison was not really very good. Today, you can have a gas Camry or a hybrid Camry, a gas Civic or a hybrid Civic. The point is, there are models now that you can buy for in a gas version, and the same car in a hybrid, and you can get to the actual cost up in a more accurate manner. You are interested in how much gas you have to buy at the savings of the hybrid and then calculate that back into how many miles you drive per year to arrive at how many years it takes to recover the added cost. The calculations ignore maintenance issues -- battery costs -- which actually push the ROI horizon even further into the distance.

You have to figure out what it takes to make a CNG, or LNG, or whatever, and then figure out exactly what the fuel costs per mile are, and then divide the cost per mile into the cost of the conversion to figure out how many miles it takes, and then divide that by the number of miles you drive so you can see if you will live long enough to get your money back.

Of course, you ONLY need to calculate all of this if you are truly an ecomony-driven person. I think you are on a false economy, but I have not run the numbers. I think the real reason to do this has to be green -- you care about your carbon foot print, and the costs of cleaning up your personal act do not matter to you. I think if you looked at this from the greem perspective, it makes sense. If you look at from the view of your checkbook, it makes no sense at all.

Based on gas @ $3/gal and the local NG rate as of last year (higher then than now) my use for a 7 passenger van the break even on the aftermarket conversion (hardware only) is less than a year using the CNG fuel station down town. If I use a compressor at the house and include the cost of that and the NG my break even point is about the same. The second year my cost is down by 2/3 if I use the numbers from the CNG station downtown but if I use the compressor at the house my cost is down to 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of using liquid gas.

Add to the process the B* expenses of state and federal certification and the numbers just don't make sense for a few personal and commercial use vehicles.

I'm checking to see (hence my post here) what might be on the horizon for CNG duel fuel system from the manufactures. So far the only one that have answered has been GMC and they will only be offering a single CNG option on a dedicated (CNG) system is available only with the 6.0L V8 SFI engine for the 2012 GMC Savana Cargo 1WT and for the 2012 Chevrolet Express Cargo 1WT.

Neither has much application for my needs. No word yet from any of the other manufactures.

I've tried talking to my state and federal law makers and those folk don't have a clue what's up with either the rules they have enacted or the alternatives much less the impact either way.

The only reason for the 3000 psi is that the storage in ft^3 is a function of the pressure times the volume of the 'can'.

Are you saying that to fit 5 pounds of shit into a 3 pound can, you have to compress it to 3,000 psi? If the can was larger, you would not need so much pressure? I follow that. There is only so much space, and if you want enough fuel in the space to go a useful distance, then you gotta pack it in very tight.

I'm surprised that the ROI comes so soon, and there is almost no demand for the conversion. Given the almost non-existant demand from the private sector -- I have never heard of anybody but you even express interest -- I would have expected an ROI more like that of a hybrid.

Sounds like you've done the homework, now all you need is a viable vehicle that has the system. The two vans you talked of from GM are the same, and they are cargo vans (I'm pretty sure) that have no windows or seats. Not a very attractive transportation option for a guy with 50 grandkids. Okay if you paint houses, not so good for the grandspawn -- not to mention, the Mrs.