Gas Prices making a dent ... finally!

Considering that Katrina's rebuilding effort could pay for 3 months of additional war mongering, I'd say that it's substantial. The bridge to nowhere couldn't pay for 1 day, however. That's more icing on our country's bankruptcy cake.

I can't, but that's not the point. Any time another country suggests tarriffs on our products, it's all over the news and politicians & the affected manufacturers begin foaming at the mouth. You've seen this.

Sure, it sucks, but in the set of all possible trading partners, of course you will see some countries employ "protectionist" measures. If GM is losing money because Toyota had the vision to see that gas guzzlers would go the way of the dinosaur, why should the government aid GM in recovering? The company needs restructuring badly, and keeping it afloat rather than letting an Iacocca take it over and turn it around is bad for business, and bad for America. Therefore, those who favor tariffs as corporate welfare are freedom-hating people.

That last sentence is true, but for strange reasons. I'll state it another way: All businesses are subject to competition, and deserve to float or sink based on whether they do the right things or not. If a lawn chair manufacturer built garbage and finally went out of business, nobody would raise an eyebrow. It's the normal course of events.

But, automobiles occupy a special place in the American psyche, for reasons I'll never understand. So, for quite a few years, the big 3 built vehicles of hideous quality. Some have now reached levels between "better" and "decent". But, between (roughly) 1970 and 1990, millions of people continued to buy garbage from the big 3. Why? Can you think of any other product people would continue buying, knowing it was trash and that the manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank?

There were the obvious reasons, like my fathers: "The Japs tried multiple times to shoot my plane out of the sky over the Pacific in WWII. I'd never buy a Jap car". (He was OK with buying me Japanese cameras and electronics when I was a kid, though). This doesn't completely explain the brand loyalty, though. I'm too busy to speculate further, but it's very weird.

There was a point when Van Heusen began making really gnarly dress shirts, so I switched to Lands' End. I did the same with cars. Other people don't.

I see your point about blind patriotism and consumer purchasing, but WWII veterans are dying at an astonishing rate every day. The hatred of Japanese cars is dying with it. The 80s was riddled with hatred for all things Japanese, as their quality symbolized a demise in the U.S. automobile industry. Quality increased somewhat at that time, so people bought American again. Now, the quality factor, not to mention the MPG factor, is displacing that "patriotism" of consumer purchasing. People already forget the 80s and the Jap threat that materialized. Also, Jap companies employ U.S. workers and help boost the U.S. economy anyway. So, there's little reason for most educated (and even non-educated) people to avoid purchasing them anymore. This blind patriotism is a dying breed. In a way, it's a good thing, because the free market works best when gov't isn't involved in bailing out organizations and consumers choose based on value (not to mention meddling in our personal affairs). It helps promote the concept that vehicles will continue to improve in their longevity and endurance.

Isn't envy one of the deadly sins?

mike hunt

Do you actually believe Toyota or any of the other import brands will still assemble there vehicles in the US if there were no domestic cooperators? LOL

mike hunt

You forgot to say in my opinion, since more Americans believe domestics are as good or better than anything Toyota has to offer. On can not argue with the sales figures. Buy what ever you choose, but the fact remains GM sells three times as many vehicles in the US as does Toyota and Ford sells more than twice as many as Toyota. Contrary what many in the NG want to believe GM is not loosing money even though they did in one quarter.

mike hunt

Do you need an explanation of why sheer sales numbers are meaningless without further information?

And, do you know what it means to "audit a college course"? You might want to consider auditing a statistics course at a nearby college. It'll probably cost you nothing to do so.

What is a "domestic cooperator"?

Where do you get those assumptions? There is little discernable difference in the build quality and longevity among the vehicles offer for sale by all of the manufactures today. As to fuel economy GM offers more vehicles that get MPG figures equal or better than to anything sold by Toyota and they are doing it with engines that are not underpowered. Do a little research rather than expressing an uninformed opinion, WBMA

mike hunt

Consumer Reports continues to find more defects in the American cars they test. It's improved over the past 15 years, but there's still a wide margin. It's significant because most of what they find involves fit and finish. They can't see the hidden things that pop up 2-3 years later.

No further information is needed when one is comparing similar sized and equipped vehicles that are available to buyers and brand A and B sell more than C and D. The conclusion as to why is obvious ;)

mike hunt

I not going to argue your opinion, you can believe what you wish, but I suggest you ask for more detail and expand your search criteria LOL

mike hunt

Well....it's on the printed page right in front of me when I read the magazine, and I'm pretty sure I'm not hallucinating. In addition, they conduct owner surveys which reveal how people feel about their cars a few years later.

Umm....no. Wasn't it you who, in another message, said that the number of potential buyers had increased over the years, and that even though GM's percentage share was smaller than in the past, they were selling more cars than Toyota?

Do you see how meaningless that is? Yes, or no?

You've made this claim before and never offered a reference to back it. Do so.

You've made this claim before. Do a bumper-to-bumber comparison for us. What GM or Ford vehicle do you think is equivalent to or better than a 154hp Camry LE and still gets equal or better gas mileage?

Here, I'll do one for you... In spite of the price difference (the 154hp Camry LE is considerably cheaper, at least before the givebacks GM finds necessary to move Buicks), you could compare the Buick LaCrosse (one of GM's most recent introductions, so we'd expect it to be technologically sophisticated) and the Camry LE. The Camry's 9 in or so shorter and a little narrower (i.e., fits into my garage more readily) but has more luggage room and most interior dimensions are very, very close. The features list is similar, too, but the edge goes to the Buick for having "wood trim" in several places (yippee). The Camry is rated at 24/34 for mileage and the LaCrosse is rated at 20/29 mpg.

You've also disparaged the performance of 4-cylinder Camrys before. The good people at

project that, yes, the V6 LaCrosse will beat the I4 Camry in the quarter mile by 16.80 to 17.75 seconds (I added 150 lbs for the drivers). Not a terribly impressive victory (I'll take the gas savings, thank you). I'd bet you'd find that the LaCrosse doesn't actually have a one-second lead over the Camry, either, since the Toyota uses a DOHC VVTi motor (in my experience, VVTi engines give much better low-end torque) while the Buick has an 3.8L OHV engine without any tricks.

By the way, good luck parking that Buick. GM thoughtfully engineered a turning in a turning circle of 40.4 feet vs 34.8 for the Camry.

Of course, if you do value performance over fuel mileage, the 3.3L V6 Camry SE is still list-priced less than the LaCrosse and has 210HP on tap in a

3450 lb package, getting 21/29mpg (slightly better than the LaCrosse). It is projected to quarter mile .35 sec faster than the Buick but I'd be very suprised the margin if wasn't actually larger (the Toyota 3.3L V6 is also a VVTi/DOHC engine).

Got a trailer? Consider buying a Camry, which tows 2000 lbs, as opposed to the Buick's 1000 lbs.

Sources:

Don't listen to "Mike Hunt(er)". He has thrown around this claim and other pro-domestic claims time and time again, and yet has offered no solid evidence to back them up. He's just a troll, and an illiterate one at that. "Manufactures"... LOFL!!!

I love the bit about how a smaller percentage of a higher number is evidence of something (?), even if the actual number of cars ends up being larger.