I have a Volvo 340 (GL 1.7 1990) which is causing me grief at the moment.
Initially the car was having problems in motorway driving. A loss of power occured at 50 mph where the revs just died and then the car stalled. Hubby stopped driving it on the motorway and we swapped cars. I was using it as a local run about - driving 15 - 20 mins to my work and back and it seemed fine.
Then it started not restarting when warm. Did this on several occasions and could take up to 1/2 an hour to get her restarted again.
Car then went in for its MOT and service. After this seemed fine again for about a month. But recently she has started having problems again.
First off first thing in the morning she would start and then die immediately then it would take another couple of attempts with choke fully out to start her. But apart from that OK. Then she stalled going up a hill at a junction near my work. She then did this three days in a row at exactly the same place.
Then the other night we took her out together. Seemed not too bad at first but kind of rough idling and then started cutting out again at speed. We were doing maybe 40 - 50mph and the revs would just totally die (and at this point we could hear a kind of hissing?). Once or twice they came back up again and the car bucked. Other times she would stall and it would take a few attempts to get her started again.
Now the car has had a fair amount of maintenance done on her in the last year. New distributor and rotor arm, new leads, sparks etc (twice) and a completely new carb (when we were advised by a Volvo dealer that was what was causing the problem). As you can imagine we are getting somewhat frustrated with it all as it seems no-one knows what is up with her.
From what I read on here I wonder if it is a dying fuel pump? Or a blockage in the fuel line? Or does anyone have any other ideas?
The car is booked into the garage next week but just wanted to get some more volvo related opinion form this group as I don't have a great deal of faith in our mechanic getting to the source of the problem. Any help or advice very gratefully recieived.
I would change the fuel filter as it seems like it is getting blocked. These symptoms occur with a fuel line blockage. There may also be a small filter at the fuel inlet to the carburettor and if a mechanical fuel pump is fitted one on the pickup side of the pump.
Hi Peter cheers for the reply. The (main) fuel filter has been changed recently - well certianly within the last 6 months when we had the new carb fitted. And the car has just gone thro a service where I am pretty sure the fuel filter was changed. But it is certainly worth a check I would presume as these filters are pretty cheap aren't they? Certainly cheaper than a fuel pump.....will give it a go and let you know how we get on.
carbs - you've replaced it, assuming its a new one and new gasket etc, should have eliminated that unless your mechanic doesn't know Volvos well (not common).
Ignition - rear cam driven distributor leaks oil into the distributor cap by condensation. Causes stalling at junction on application of power. Can be improved in some cases, sometime needs expensive new cam and very carefull assembly..
Fuel pumps and filters ar not common problems. My advice - get rid of it and buy a low mileage 360. Not as economical on fuel but bomb proof and no design problems. All problem fixable cheaply.
1.7 Renault Engine, bad
2.0 Volvo Engine, the dogs bollocks
- not restarting when the motor is warm may happen if there are air bubbels or gasoline vapour when things get too hot in the fuel line. Maybe some leaks somewhere? And check where the fule line runs.
- another thing I saw once: in the gasonline tak you get a vacuum if the small hole in the (sorry, I'm Dutch, hope this is the right word) cap that remove to refuel (you knwo what I mean) is blocked. You get vacuum and you car can't get enough fuel.
-stalling up hill can either be because your car needs more gasonline and can't supply it, or something is angle-dependent. Maybe you fuel pump can't get the gasonline up: when you go UP hil, the gasonline goes upwards too. So it could be at the end of its life.
Thats odd, I thought European 360's were all 2.0L B19/B200 engines.
The B14 is not as bad as the B172 for reliability, carbs and cam don't usually get expensive to fix problems. If they had put a decent carb / manifold and standard intermediate shaft driven distributor it would have been a good engine.
I've been thinking about this and I'm sure we can get to the bottom of it.
This is a contradiction. I guess you mean just a loss of power and the engine died. Was it total a loss or did it start by missing / stuttering? I don't understand how the revs died then it stalled. Did you clutch-in and ty to rev up the engine?
Gradually loss with stuttering can be fuel problems, one of which is carb icing which happen in the cold if your warm air thermostat is faulty or the warm air feed is missing or damaged.
Total fuel blockage is very unlikely, there are several filters each of which is very difficult to block in one go, presuming the main consumables have been changed.
Ignition problems at low revs can be reved out off usually, but can be difficult to restart if you let it die.
Hubby stopped driving it on the motorway and we swapped cars.
Consistent with carb icing. Did the car run fine after it restarted? Was it cold or misty?
Not consistent with carb icing or oil in the distributor, but could just be bad carb adjustments /assembly, burnt exhaust valves or just general old car syndrome. Not that its not fixable, it just might not be linked to other fault.
Rough idleing, could be leaky ignition due to old leads / damp / oil in distributor. Idleing is controlled by a seperate fuel circuit in the carb, so any problems here and the car wouldn't run at idle.
We were doing maybe 40 - 50mph and the revs would just totally
This could be the typical problem of the warping manifold / carb and subsequent air leakage, but it would not normally stop the car unless you refused to rev it (clutch in and pump the accelerator until you get it running properly), or simply put it in a lower gear. Hissing can happen as a result of very bad ignition, when air pressurised in the cylinder leaks out through the imperfectly sealed valved, not having exploded. It does depend on what you mean by hissing.
Once or
I doubt the fuel pump would fail in this way, or even a blockage. Pieter mentions a possible blockage in the tank breather causing a vacuum to form in the tank. I used to get this in my 340 1.4 (you'd hear a sucking sound when you pulled of the filler cap), but it never stopped the engine. Also I think the 1.7 breather is better designed.
Rough idleing then cutting out at speed - ignition, air or fuel, one of them won't have all the symtoms as severly as you describe.
Its very strange all the symptoms sort of contradict each other .
I get the feeling you're maybe not making any sensible attempts to keep it going by increasing the revs and by trying to push a sick car along at low revs you are masking the real symptoms. Having said that it might not be useful unless you know what you are doing. Try playing with pumping the accelerator or gently increasing your foot pressure on it to encourage it to rev up.
As I've already mentioned the 1.7s are quite bad for having very difficult to fix problems. A family members car had a similar problem for about 6 months (longer if you include the time they didn't drive it for), I discovered the problem after the first few months, then took remaing year or so to try to eliminate it (was a bit intemittent). I managed a 99% cure eventually, I drove the car for about 1 year aswell after taking it on when another family member didn't need it. However I could detect that occasionally it would threaten to come back, but never caused severe problems. That pretty much sealed the cars fate, and my opinion of the 1.7.
I've been thinking about this and I'm sure we can get to the bottom of it.
+++ Hi Tony thanks for all your comments. I'll try and answer them the best I can (I'm not very technically worded)
This is a contradiction. I guess you mean just a loss of power and the engine died. Was it total a loss or did it start by missing / stuttering? I don't understand how the revs died then it stalled. Did you clutch-in and ty to rev up the engine?
+++ Was hubby that was driving when this happened so don't know for sure. But what I understand to have happened is this: car is doing
50mph then started to lose power going down to maybe 30mph and then the revs just dropped like a stone to 0mph and all the lights on the dash came on = car stalled. Not sure on this occasion but there has been hesitation and stuttering as well.
Gradually loss with stuttering can be fuel problems, one of which is carb icing which happen in the cold if your warm air thermostat is faulty or the warm air feed is missing or damaged.
+++ not cold. Mild summers morning and evening.
Total fuel blockage is very unlikely, there are several filters each of which is very difficult to block in one go, presuming the main consumables have been changed.
Ignition problems at low revs can be reved out off usually, but can be difficult to restart if you let it die.
+++ I think this has happened in the past as well (before the carb was changed) where hubby 'revved hell out of it' and the problem went away....for that day anyway
Hubby stopped driving it on the motorway and we swapped cars.
Consistent with carb icing. Did the car run fine after it restarted? Was it cold or misty?
+++ no again warm summers day. And no the car was still the same after restarting.
Not consistent with carb icing or oil in the distributor, but could just be bad carb adjustments /assembly, burnt exhaust valves or just general old car syndrome. Not that its not fixable, it just might not be linked to other fault.
+++ well we have had a problem with the car hesitating at certain gear changes (mainly 3rd and 4th) which now seems might be related. Our mechanic looked at it and said it was carbon buildup on the valves (forgive me if that is not correct terms?) caused by age he said and put an engine treatment into it which seemed to make the problem better but didn't solve it completely.
Rough idleing, could be leaky ignition due to old leads / damp / oil in distributor.
+++ new leads and oil as just been serviced. Distributor cap changed about a year ago. Maybe needing new one? Mechanic did say there was a lot of oil around the engine when he serviced it and wanted to get it in and steam clean it to find out where it was coming from. Do you think then it could be oil in distributor cap?
Idleing is controlled by a seperate fuel circuit in the carb, so any problems here and the car wouldn't run at idle.
+++ car isn't bad at idle...cept when this problem starts to occur.
We were doing maybe 40 - 50mph and the revs would just totally
This could be the typical problem of the warping manifold / carb and subsequent air leakage, but it would not normally stop the car unless you refused to rev it (clutch in and pump the accelerator until you get it running properly), or simply put it in a lower gear.
+++ well the other day when it happened I was going maybe 20 - 25mph in 3rd or 4th (can't rem) and when I noticed there was no power in the accelerator I started to pump the acc and change down gears but the revs just slowly dropped to 0mph as if nothing I was doing was helping. I suppose it could be warped manifold but I think the new carb came with an adpation kit that was supposed to seal that up? Hubby seems to be able to drive the car when she starts this by keeping the choke out and keeping her in high revs.
Hissing can happen as a result of very bad ignition, when air pressurised in the cylinder leaks out through the imperfectly sealed valved, not having exploded. It does depend on what you mean by hissing.
+++ I dunno...just seemed to be a faint hissing / noise coming from the front drivers side of the car when it was losing power?
Once or
I doubt the fuel pump would fail in this way, or even a blockage. Pieter mentions a possible blockage in the tank breather causing a vacuum to form in the tank. I used to get this in my 340 1.4 (you'd hear a sucking sound when you pulled of the filler cap), but it never stopped the engine. Also I think the 1.7 breather is better designed.
+++ yeah this has never happened to us.
Rough idleing then cutting out at speed - ignition, air or fuel, one of them won't have all the symtoms as severly as you describe.
Its very strange all the symptoms sort of contradict each other .
+++ maybe it is my descriptions? But it would seem strange that it could be a combination doens't it? I am now beginning to wonder if it was this causing the problem the whole time and not the carb though it was the volvo dealership that told us the carb was warped. It is the same symptoms that led us to get the carb changed?
I get the feeling you're maybe not making any sensible attempts to keep it going by increasing the revs and by trying to push a sick car along at low revs you are masking the real symptoms. Having said that it might not be useful unless you know what you are doing. Try playing with pumping the accelerator or gently increasing your foot pressure on it to encourage it to rev up.
+++ well I (we) don't really know what we are doing. But at the end of the day unless it is to get out of emergency situations I don't care about making the car 'go'. I just want it fixed so it doesn't happen again. She is a great car to drive when she is running properly.
As I've already mentioned the 1.7s are quite bad for having very difficult to fix problems. A family members car had a similar problem for about
6 months (longer if you include the time they didn't drive it for), I discovered the problem after the first few months, then took remaing year or so to try to eliminate it (was a bit intemittent). I managed a 99% cure eventually, I drove the car for about 1 year aswell after taking it on when another family member didn't need it. However I could detect that occasionally it would threaten to come back, but never caused severe problems. That pretty much sealed the cars fate, and my opinion of the 1.7.
+++ well exactly. Ours has had this problem for about 2 years or more..on and off. At other times she is as reliable as anything and takes a daily run on the motorway to work and back easily in her stride. I realise that maybe the 1.7 isn't the best engine in the world but she is our first car and we are reluctant to get rid of her when the fix might be simple but just hard to find. But we are beginning to admit that it might be time :( I just wish you could take a look at her and drive her. I feel you could probably tell us in 5 minutes what the mechanic might never find :(
You do find that only a few people have gotten to the bottom of these difficult problems. The oil in the distributor is one I have had full experience with, but the air leaks I have not seen personally so I don't actually know what is wrong with the design, but I have heard reports (on here) that both carb and manifold have been warped.
From the reving and choke helping, It does sound more likely you have the air leak problem and the next course of action would be to change the manifold. I'd get one from a scrap yard (£10) and check the mating surface for flatness before assembly. I know my car had a good one when it went to the scrap yard with carb and rust problems.. Most mechanics with a half decent knowedge should be aware of this problem and how to fix it.
You could also have the oil problem but unless the seal is totally gone, you wouldn't see oil on the outside of the distributor. Its probably comming from the valve cover. I heard of the symptoms many times (stalling when pulling of a junctions), but never heard anyone else had a solution.
Its very hard to get a garage to take back parts that didn't fix the problem, it seems you have to pay for their lack of correct diagnosys.
The 1.7 is a good engine, very refined, driveable and economical if driven gently. Its just that its unreliable with at least 2 major design defects I know of that cause early failure,
One more thing. This is my own experience: when our volvo 340 1.4 engine (with belt drive) was cold it needed much choke, but not for a long distance. But when you used the choke too much you get too much gasonline, the spark plugs get wet, and the warm car won't start. In Dutch we call that "verzuipen", drowing. Our Volvo was sensitive to this. The only way to get it going at that point is give full throttle (and do not let it go up again, also not between starting, as you don't want the acceleration pump to add more gasoline) and start. This can take a while, you may have to try starting it a couple of times.
Just one thing I noticed when I started the warm car (habit) with choke (thinking "o shit, did it again").
+++ Hi again Tony. Well dropped the car off at the garage this morning. I have printed off a sheet for him with the symptoms the car is having and also a list of suggestions from here (and the volvoclub site forum) mainly to do with the manifold/gasket/air leak problem.
The more I think about it the more it seems likely that this is the problem as it is reoccuring and was what led us to change the carb in the first place. So it kinda makes sense that a temp fix had been done on the gasket with the failing (?) carb (when it was in the volvo dealership) and then when we got the carb replaced that another temp fix was done on the gasket. And now it has worn off again.
So I do think you are correct the only way to go is to get a new one or get it filed down as someone else has suggested. I *do* think the mechanic will pick up on this as I am sure he told me about problems and how he had lined the 'gap' with sealant (or whatever it is that they do?). But will give him a wee ring and make sure he looks at it anyway.
Thanks for all your help and will let you know how we get on. It is unfortunate that the 1.7 engine has design flaws as it *does* drive very well and she is a good car with great bodywork etc and should be able to keep going for a good couple of years yet. If we can just get this problem fixed.....keep you posted.
+++ Hi Pieter Yeah I think ours has that problem as well. TBH it is hubbys car and I was only driving it for a few weeks as it was unreliable on the motorway. (I only need to do local journeys to work whereas he needs to go over a very busy motorway and had several scary breakdowns). When I had trouble restarting her he told me that to restart her warm he would only pull the choke out ever so slightly almost a finger nails width and she would start OK. But I do think the current problem has made this worse. But it seems I *can* get her started this way again but as you say it takes a few attmepts. They are good cars aren't they? I feel that to get rid of her now is like putting down an animal cos it has a sore paw :( I know I know I am too sentimental but there it is.
Thanks for all your help. Let you know how it goes. DD
We now have a Volvo 440 1.8i (this car was meant by Volvo as successor of the 340, both were designed and built in the Netherlands). The 440 has a lot of improvements compared to the 340. Road behaviour is impressive!
I thought I would let everyone know the verdict on the car after bothering you with my problems all week.
Picked the car up last night. The mechanic had decided to go with a fuel pump as he said the present one (apparently the original) was taking 4-5 mins to refill. He had also done a fair bit of further investigation into the car. He had taken off the carb and cleaned and reassembled it paying particular attention to the join with the gasket/manifold (which he says is fine). Investigated the source of oil leak and discovered some oil in distributor cap so cleaned that out. Also checked out the fuel lines and found one of them to be porous.
The good news is the immediate problem with the car stalling and iddling erratically seems to be gone. Took her out for quite a long drive last night and she seems much more stable, driving well and no indication of cutting out.
The bad news is the mechanic is not optimistic for the future of the car. He says that the cars hesitation /slight stutter on low throttle is due to a massive build up of carbon on the engine valves which is not letting a great deal of petrol through to the engine. He says it can be fixed but it means completly dismantling the engine and rebuilding which he says would be in the region of £200 - £400. Also he said that one of the fuel lines is porous but that they go over the top or thro the petrol tank and the top of it is badly rusted on. He doesn't think he would be able to get it off and we would need a new petrol tank.
So folks any opinions? Is he right and the car is at an end of its days? Or can she be saved? I think currently our opinion is we will keep driving her for the present and see how it goes.
The best way to clean the back of the inlet valves without spannering is to first remove the aircleaner and get some Redex petrol treatment.
Get hold of the throttle linkage and keep the engine revving 3000rpm-ish whilst pouring in the redex into the carb. Beware you will get massive clouds of blue smoke. Use about 1/4 of the bottle then let the engine stall and sit overnight. All parts will be coated in redex and will soften overnight. You may have to remove and clean the plugs to get it to start after though. It will be abit smokey for awhile after.
Then run through some fuel injector cleaner (tip in tannk variety) at about twice concentration. This then does a fair job at flushing through the softened carbon, and a fast motorway run will help too.
I think this is a good advice. I would have started with only the cleaner, but this seems to be better.
But of course there should never have been some much carbon on the valves. Maybe because of your previous problems? I wonder how the mechanic saw this.
About the fuel injector: make sure your tank is half-filled when you poor it in, or use two in a full tank. Then make a very long drive (how about going to the sea for a day) so the motor gets warm, thats the point where the carbon really starts to burn away.
So how do it supply the engine then. It is at the top of the engine, and old pumps can be a slow to pull fuel from the tank until wet. My old 360 does it with no problems driving, I will change it to fuel injection soon.
He had also done a fair bit of further
Possibly believable.
Investigated the source of
Not really a long term solution
Faily common in car of that age, simple replacement for a few quid.
Probably due to the cleaned distributor cap, which will get oily again.
Not very believable. Severe carbon build on valves up is A) unlikely, B) will not cause the symptoms he describes. Any restriction would also not allow a great deal of air into the engine, this is generally know as a throttle and serves the same function as taking you foot of the accelerator, basically power loss.
Sounds like he knows what the fault is and is going to stick you for a head job.
Its getting more unlikely.
I expect the problem will return within a week or 2, if it does take it to another mechanic.
Assumin the airleak is not the problem the only thing to really worry about is the oil in the distributor, I am confident that I could provide a 99% cure with the following. If you were in N.Ireland I would consider a humanitarian visit, but if not try to find a mechanic who will follow these instructions in detail:
Assuming rear CAM seal is pushed right in
Remove distributor and base
Remove valve cover
Remove CAM end cap
Remove oil seal and clean surfaces maticulously. Inspect CAM for wear lip from seal. Usually this will be close to the CAM lobes.
Put CAM end cap back on and torque up
Push new seal in gently with a flat bar until (the very important bit) it is flush with the surface of the head so that it is sealing on a nice new piece of CAM.
Reassemble remaining, use new valve cover seal and check for oil leaks from oil cap, breather etc.
So next time, do it yourself, is very easy. Take it off (two screws or clips is all), and clean it, don't take the cables off.
Yes, I also wondered in my other message how he came to this conclusion. And there should not be too much carbon, certainly not in a Volvo. If there really is, maybe you make very short drives with the choke open? Does you car smoke when it is warm, blue smoke?
Hesitation / slow stutter may be due to a little too low petrol level in the air-petrol mixture. But it could also be ignition. When you have so incredible much carbon at or around the valves, the whole mixture can't get in, and you loose power in the maximum range. Try a little bit of speeding (I am not paying your tickets..) and see what max. speed you can get.
And hide what he did wrong before,to hide all the costs that were already made? I don't know, but it is possible? If so, the problem will certainly come back! And in that case you should really follow Tony's advice about another mechanic.
I never had rust problems in our Volvos. It is very resistant against rust, it is built for the Dutch climate.....
Thanks for all your replies guys...sorry I haven't replied sooner but not been well this week (never rains but it pours eh?)
Update on the car. Well it looks as if you guys were right about the garage. Not cause the car is acting up again (yet) probably cause we haven't been able to drive her much. Came over a speed bump in a supermarket car park on Monday and the exhaust came clean off! This is a car that was MOT'd about 2 months ago! How could something like that be missed? (Ironically hubby is quite 'pleased' he says 'that's a normal car thing for exhausts to go - we can get that fixed no problem!')
So we have resolved not to take either of our cars back to that garage. I think you guys were right and he was just attempting to scam us for an engine job - he was adamant that that was the next *only* move and that he had tried *everything* else. I only really realised that in clarity after you guys criticism of him and his work so thanks for opening my eyes to that. And we've probably already shelled out for fuel pump we didn't need.
So anyone know a good (honest??) mechanic in the glasgow area? Any recommendations would be very gratefully received!
As the volvo goes she is running OK (apart from the exhaust) but we have found a friend who knows a bit about cars and engines and stuff and is willing to carry out your recommendations if (and probably when) the car starts acting up again. So we will at least give her a chance with that. If it all goes pear shaped and we try out the solutions and she *still* isn't working then I maybe back to ask for more advice.
In the meantime thanks again for all your advice. You have probably saved an aging 340 from a early retirement (with just the knowledge that the problem may not be insurmountable if you get someone to help who knows what they are talking about unlike most crook mechanics!)
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