total cost of ownership: TDI vs. 1.8T

Hi everyone,

In our seemingly never-ending quest for automobile nirvana, we're still sitting on the fence between the 2004 Jetta 1.8T and the 2004 Jetta TDI.

I believe the 1.8T requires premium fuel, which is currently somewhere around CDN$0.97 per litre. The TDI, of course, requires diesel fuel which is about CDN$0.75 per litre. Obviously, there will be a huge annual saving of approximately $850 per year, based on 20,000 kms a year.

What about the cost of maintenance. I understand that the TDI requires oil/filter changes half as often, but they're more expensive; about $90 every 16,000 kms vs. $65 every 8,000 kms for the 1.8T.

What about everything else that needs to be done with the TDI? Am I correct in understanding that I would need to add some sort of diesel additive every time I fill up? How much does that cost?

I realize that the TDI doesn't have spark plugs, coil packs, etc. But it does have fuel filters that need to be emptied regularly, and so on.

Excluding any fuel savings, what is the cost of maintaining a TDI for the first 50,000 km? 100,000 km? 150,000 km? 200,000 km? Is it cheaper than the 1.8T to maintain (again, excluding any fuel savings) over a given distance?

This info would be really helpful in pushing us off of the proverbial fence we're still stuck on.

Thanks, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus
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||I believe the 1.8T requires premium fuel,

You can run on regular grade, but performance suffers. And if you push it hard with low octane in it, it will turn on the cold temp light. Not sure what that means, but it happened to us.

Of course, the 1.8T will get you about 30 mpg all the time. The TDI will get you about 50% better fuel economy, and use cheaper fuel. We have a 1.8T NB right now. The next car might be a Passat or Jetta TDI Rex in Fort Worth

Reply to
Rex B

I have heard the turbocharged 1.8 litre isn't so great with the automatic tranny (do you even have one... I know I would never get an automatic unless I got a great deal on the car... as was the case with my Golf)... something to do with the turbo lag and delays in the transmission kickdown... This was on a Passat tho, not a Golf/Jetta.

Just want to point in the TDI's are quite good with automatics, performance hardly suffers (fuel mileage isn't as good tho), and there isn't any turbo lag that I can feel in a TDI, btw my TDI only has the older 4 speed, non tiptronic transmission - a fairly smooth and responsive unit, tho sometimes it leaves my engine thrasing at 4200rpm when I press the throttle down to pass someone.... I drove a manual tranny Jetta (I didn't buy it because the KMs were higher and it had gasoline in the diesel tank at one point) and the torque in the diesels makes it not necessary to downshift.

Reply to
Rob Guenther

snipped-for-privacy@REMOVEtxol.net (Rex B) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.txol.net:

Rex,

How many miles do you have on your 1.8T? And what, approximately, have you spent on maintenance? Have you had to do anything other than regularly scheduled maintenance?

Cheers, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

Where are you located? Today I saw that the price of diesel has dropped to .647 from .667 in Waterloo, Ont. (GTO, King and Northfield). I haven't seen .75 for diesel in 12 months, and that was only for a couple of weeks...

Some people will tell you that. I think it's a crock. I've been driving VW diesels since 1978. In 1979 or 1980 I had one incident when the fuel gelled (and the car wouldn't run until the day warmed up a little). In all that time I had zero problems with fuel pumps or injectors. Most winters I buy two 500ml bottles of whatever I can find at Cdn Tire that promises to prevent gelling, and add them about a month apart (I go about 2 weeks between fills, so every 2nd fill).

If you get convinced that you have to baby a TDI by adding something at every fullup, then you'd also have to baby the 1.8T similarly by only using premium, and regularly adding a fuel additive there too. I don't think there are any special requirements for the TDI. It's just that some folks are "more enthusiastic" about this stuff than others.

My only advice is to buy fuel at a place that does lots of volume. I like the GTO mentioned above because their diesel pumps are always busy with VWs, big pickups, and small commercial vehicles (cube vans, etc.). And GTO is part by Sunoco.

Reply to
Al Rudderham

It was 69.9 here in Halton Hills for a while, back to 67.9 now.. it's around

Reply to
Rob Guenther

Al Rudderham wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I'm in Vancouver, on the other side of the country from you. I wonder why we pay so much more for diesel than you.

Ok, great. That's what I wanted to hear. Comparitively speaking, we have very mild winters, so perhaps fuel additives are not even remotely a concern out here.

I think that's excellent advice, and is also probably true for people driving the gasoline engines. :-)

How many kilometers do you have on your TDI? Any problems, or was it all just regularly scheduled maintenance stuff?

Cheers, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

I'm always confused about this cost thing. If you like the car then just buy it, and hope you don't have too many problems over the years.

Reply to
Woodchuck

"Woodchuck" wrote in news:407b3949$0$252$ snipped-for-privacy@reader.city-net.com:

That's an odd attitude to take. What ever happened to doing one's due dilligence before making a purchase?

Relatives of mine have told me that the diesel will be significantly more expensive to maintain and that there are many more things to go wrong vs. the gasoline engines. If this is true, then the TDI makes no sense for me to purchase because whatever savings I'll have at the pump will be promptly given to the dealer in the form of repairs.

They've also told me that diesel fuel is far more polluting that gas, and causes many more health problems per 1,000 miles driven.

Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

I own a 2003 Passat Variant with the 1.8T/5 speed and a 2000 Jetta TDI

5 speed. The Passat has averaged 31 MPG over it's first 8200 miles while the Jetta has averaged 49 MPG over 61,000 miles. I just performed the 60,000 mile maintenance on the Jetta which wasn't cheap. The timing/serpentine belt change I had performed at the dealer at a cost of $650 and I did everything else myself. The new TDI belt is good for 100K while the 1.8T is good for 105K and a bit cheaper to change. The TDI can go 10K on good (costlier) synthetic oil while the 1.8T is good for only 5K. The TDI fuel filter (costs $40) should be changed every 20K and drained every 10K (can easily do yourself) while the 1.8T doesn't need changing. All of these intervals are what's listed in my owner's manuals and recommended by VW. These intervals are also for the 2003 90 HP TDI, I'm not sure what the intervals are for the new PD TDI. So the overal maintenance costs for the TDI is only slightly higher than the 1.8T which is more than made up for in the fuel costs
Reply to
Rod

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Rod) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

Rod,

Thanks for the perspective. I'm not sure how many people own both a 1.8T and a TDI. :-)

My understanding is that the 2004 TDI's timing belt is good for 100,000 miles (160,000 km).

Does VW recognize service performed if I do it myself? I watched a video on how to change a fuel filter a couple of days ago and I think I could handle it. But I don't want to have to worry that my warranty may be invalid because I did some of the maintenance myself.

Cheers, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

My current TDI is an "end of year" 2002 Jetta and has 40,000 KM on it. I'm not the best person to ask about long term stuff, since I lease my cars and tend to replace them before the warranty runs out (or when they get dirty ;-).

I've had 3 "A4" TDIs (all new), and haven't had any mechanical problems with any of them that were related to the choice of engine. Just the "normal" stuff like glove box doors (problem on 99s, changed design on 2001s), relay 109 (problem with early 99s), power windows (now changed design), and all were fixed under warranty.

I'm now trying to decide whether my next car is a Passat TDI, which only comes with Tiptronic, or wait a year for the A5s to show up. I'd like a little more rear seat legroom for my grown up family, so another A4 isn't an option. Whatever the body, it will be a TDI if it's a VW.

Reply to
Al Rudderham

There's also a potential for savings in the longer range of the vehicle on a single tank, allowing you more flexibility in choice of filling stations. My wife has been driving a 2002 TDi back and forth between Calgary and BC weekly for two years, and the TDi's range allows her to fill in Calgary only, where prices are much lower.

The new TDi PD engine requires VW 505 01 standard oil, which is hard to find here in the Canadian Rockies, and expensive. VW dealerships are the only source of the Castrol product, at $11/L, but you can get Motul product at $9.50/L and save some bucks. The oil filter is about $20, so you can change your own oil for about $65 plus tax. The service manual also requires you to change the o-rings on the fuel filter and the washer on the oil drain plug. Since the old washer doesn't come off the bolt (duh!) this is problematical, so I splurge and replace the entire plug/washer assembly each oil change for under $3.

Been through two Calgary winters with the 2002 TDi without any additives, other than what Husky may put in at the pump. On really cold mornings (does have fuel filters that need to be emptied regularly, and so on.

Draining the fuel filter every oil change is a PIA (especially since I've never found any water to drain), but doesn't require rocket science, just some planning and a steady hand, so you don't get diesel all over the hoses and engine compartment. I let the dealer replace the filter at major scheduled service intervals. ...

Achim

axethetax

Reply to
Achim Nolcken Lohse

Wyley, I've been doing almost all of my own schedualed maintenance on the 12 VW's I've owned since '75 and I've never had a problem with warrenty claims. Of course I've never had a mechanical engine warranty claim either:-) As long as you document your work in a notebook and keep your parts purchase receipts you won't have a problem with VW. On the 60,000 mile maintenance I changed the oil along with the oil, fuel, air and pollen filter, changed the brake fluid, rotated the tires and a bunch of visual checks. Took me about 21/2 hours.

Rod

Reply to
Rod

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Rod) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

Rod,

I'm a very technical guy when it comes to computers and such, but I've NEVER even changed the oil on my car. Are there books or guides or well illustrated "how-to"s out there anywhere? How does one learn to do this stuff?

Cheers, Chris

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

And their qualifications for saying all of this is ... what? Do they own VW turbodiesels? Are they chemical engineers or public health specialists?

Considering all the parts the TDI does _not_ have (no plugs, no coil pack [which _was_ a problem on the 1.8T], etc.), and the fact that the engine is built to withstand much higher compression than the 1.8T faces, that comment makes no sense. The problems I've had with my TDIs are the same problems gas-engine owners face: plastic power-window regulators, broken glovebox doors, jamming rear seatbelts (all problems on my '99.5, BTW, that were fixed for '03).

I fill up with high-quality diesel from a place that sells a lot of it, do not use an additive at every fill-up, and have never had a starting problem -- even when I had to park outside, unplugged, through a few Minnesota winters -- until the battery croaked 37 months into the car's life.

Someone else already showed that oil changes are no big deal, either, especially if you go 10,000 miles (15,000-16,000 km) between them. Synthetic oil is a good idea for _any_ modern car; the TDI simply requires it.

Finally, diesel engines are inherently cleaner than gasoline engines in all respects except NOx and soot (particulates). I was concerned about this before I bought my first TDI. Diesel didn't seem like a "green" choice. But the problem is not the engine technology. NOx is a problem partially because of the cheapo diesel fuel that most diesel owners (trucks, locomotives) use. Soot is being treated with catalyzed particulate filters. As soon as the U.S. moves to ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel (like Europe already has), diesel engines will become that much cleaner.

In the meantime, you're getting half-again the mileage of a 1.8T. Which means less petroleum has to be pumped, processed (diesel is easier to refine than premium gasoline), and transported to your local station. There's pollution in that process, too. And the TDI will even run on straight vegetable oil, something I would _not_ recommend for the gasser.

Make up your own mind, but do your homework and consider the source of what you hear and see.

sd

Reply to
sd

sd wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.ash.giganews.com:

They're both heavy-duty truck and machinery mechanics. They own gas- powered cars/trucks themselves.

Will we be able to add a particulate filter and/or catalytic converter in

2006 when north american diesel is ultra-low-sulfur?

This is part of my homework. Talking with people "in the know" makes a huge difference. ;-)

Cheers, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

So why would they know anything about VW diesels?!?!

Reply to
DDB

"DDB" wrote in news:cxdfc.116643$oR5.60459 @pd7tw3no:

Well...they were commenting on diesel engines in general.

As far as emissions go, how does the VW diesel differ from a Dodge RAM truck, for example (besides the obvious that it would be less because the engine is smaller).

Cheers, Wyley

Reply to
Wyley Ingeus

And that trucks, in general, have been given a "pass" on U.S. emissions regulations.

In response to your other question, about being able to retrofit particulate filters, I imagine it could be done. I don't imagine VW will make it easy with a kit. The tricky bit would be tying in the periodic burning to the engine management electronics so that it's automatic. But some enterprising soul may sell a manually-initiated system. Or you could just use ULSD knowing that the NOx is reduced and that the soot from VW diesels _never_ resembled the storm cloud emitted from your regular ol' Freightliner or Mack truck anyway.

sd

Reply to
sd

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