End Of American Cars..??

Generally speaking, i think this proves that there is low consumer confidence in American Cars ; except for Corvette .

An article in the business section of today's paper stated that Corvette was the only bright spot GM has. Went on to say the Toyota Camry is the #1 selling sedan in the U.S. with around 400,000 sold annually.

Yawn!

Grayfox, do you every have anything uplifting, encouraging, helpful cheery, or constructive to say? Take that same loose survey where I live and you see Ford pickups, Chevy pickups, John Deer, Buicks, Ford Crowns, Case, Impalas, Focus, International, Taurus, and yes, the occasional bag of rice will go rattling by. We live in the heartland where the nearest rice peddlers are 60 miles away in the big sales areas so they can make lots of sales. They don't venture out here to be of service to the bread basket of America. They still have a goal financed by their government to out do us at something and their success is due to a Dr. from the United States.

I miss my Cadillacs, Buicks, and Oldsmobiles but my travel needs no longer require them or that's what I'd be driving. Drive what you like and quit kicking the Corvette or the American cars that have brought you the good life you could be living if you had a better attitude.

I realize that this message is just as slanted as yours, so no need to reply as you are already in the kill file and it would only be in someone else's message if I did see it.

By the way a 4 horse team of Percherons went by twice today and one of them dropped a pile of Grayfox. They were designed in France and built in the U.S.A. no known recalls. One of them looked like a Corvette and the others were dragging him back, like you try to do.

Caddy is still around, but isn't it sad that Oldsmobile isn't? My first car was a 1970 Buick Grand Sport; and it was soon followed by a 1968 Oldsmobile 442 and a 1966 Cutlass-S 350. And what is more beautiful than a

I see Mopar is bringing back the Challenger in 2008. I am hoping that GM brings back the Olds 442 or Buick Grand Sport in a RWD V-8 configuration to compete with it. Oh - V-8 RWD Camaro is coming back soon. Here are some awesome shots of it. 2 more years!!!!

I think what hurt GM was that they tried to compete with Japan in what Japan does best - crappy little 4-poppers made out of tin foil. For example - why on God's green earth is an Impala a FWD 2 door 4-popper? Or the Monte Carlo - how can anyone who has ever owned a Chevelle or Monte Carlo ever buy one of these new FWD 6-poppers? And how could GM put a Dale Earnhardt logo on those? That's like putting a Chuck Yeager logo on a Cessna 152 or Piper Cub.

I take it that this is a response to my rather neutral comment I made reference an article in the business section of our local paper. There was no "slant" on part -- simply an observation made by a Wall Street analyst which seems to convey that the original poster said. In my teenage years in the 50s, my Dad's cars were either Caddys or Lincolns. In fact, Dad drove Caddys back as far as I recollect to 1949, and before then owned a Lincoln Zephry before and during the War. That's WWII for those who don't know what I am referring to. It appears to me the "car" for those who have "arrived" today is probably a Lexus or an Infiniti, or perhaps a MB or the ultimate driving machine. Somewhere along the way a few years ago GM seemed to have lost the edge -- and now it's tough to make it back because the competition is pretty keen.

I might get blasted for this, but my last GM car was an '84 Buick Regal. Nothing but trouble. The motor (don't get me started), electrical (especially - the goddamn wipers quit on me one day in a deluge when I was on my way to a job interview; the power windows worked whenever they felt like it, fun when you're on a toll road), etc. etc. etc.

I bought an '87 Accord and the only problems I ever had, which were trivial, the dealer fixed for free. I've since moved to the Acura division and the reliability remains the same. Take the car in at the service intervals, pay the pre-set price, and drive away. Nothing ever breaks. My TL had a brake shudder and they did the rotors and pads and said, "See ya'." No charge and it was out of warranty on time, but not miles. I still have the TL, and now a TSX, and I've seen nothing to change my mind.

The 'Vette? Hey, it's a '93 with 81K miles. I expected problems and I've had some. New clutch, new opti, new clutch master and slave, new tires (my bad), etc. In a few years when the mortgage is paid, I'll rebuild it. Damn, I love the thing. Yeah, it ain't a C5 or 6, but it's my lifetime project, and I'll drive it until they take away the keys.

AJM '93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp (both tops)

Sorry TWW, my reply had nothing to do with your post, Grayfox is in my kill file and the only time I see his posts are on others that reply. As you say those that "have arrived" don't live out here so you don't see the likes of the other cars. If you lived through the war how many pounds of ice does the iceman take to the house if the green is at the top of the card hanging in the window?

Peace, Dad

No offense taken. We are probably from the same generation.

Hondas are very good cars. As I said, the competition is very keen.

Toyota may be the #1, but I'm not sure how long that remains if their resale values continue to be so poor. We just traded Toyota Highlanders this week for my wife (she insists on Toyotas) and the value of a 2002 Highlander ($25,000 MSRP) is $9000. That is a $16,000 loss on a $25,000 vehicle in only 4 years.

You can check Kelly Blue Book to verify. BTW, the Toyota dealers seem to only use Kelly to set the used value, as Kelly is the lowest of Kelly, NADA, and Edmunds, more ways to rip you off.

OK... I decided to check the '02 Highlanders at Kelly...

Chose the lower model Sport Utility 4wd, standard options Kelly provided, and went with 62,000 miles (typical mileage according to KBB), Good Condition, zip code 97xxx (Oregon):

Trade in - $12,300 Private Party - $14,600 Retail - $18,150 (This value assumes the vehicle has received the cosmetic and/or mechanical reconditioning needed to qualify it as ³Excellent². This is not a transaction value; it is representative of a dealer¹s asking price and the starting point for negotiation.)

Seems your dealer really low-balled the figure - maybe due to slump in SUV sales. Maybe I missed something in entering info - I was just going by guidelines with condition, options and mileage.

("Good" condition means that the vehicle is free of any major defects. This vehicle has a clean title history, the paint, body and interior have only minor (if any) blemishes, and there are no major mechanical problems. There should be little or no rust on this vehicle. The tires match and have substantial tread wear left. A "good" vehicle will need some reconditioning to be sold at retail. Most consumer owned vehicles fall into this category.)

Here's waving to ya - \||||

Owen ___

'67BB & '72BB

-- not affiliated with JLA forum in any way -- alt.autos.corvette is original posting -- ___

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger

Hi Owen,

Ours was 2WD, so that drops the price some. Depending on area, the Good Trade In price varies from about $9000 - $11,000.

My gripe was that the car was in excellent condition. No dings, no spots. Heck, my wife gets towels for the floors as soon as we get it, and covers the mats. There really wasn't a reason to trade, other than it was 4 years old and had 76,000 miles on it. This is where the first items on Toyotas that break begin to and they are out of your pocket, and that drives her crazy. Me, I look at it as a $500 or $1000 item this year and one next year is better than paying $10,000 - $15,000 for a new vehicle. But she is the hysterical type. The battery died a few days before, but then it was 4 years old. To me, we spent $50 for a new battery and good to go. To her, it was the signs of the end of the world and we had to get rid of it quick.

How I married her, I have no idea.

Anyway, I couldn't get one dealer to deal with the Kelly Excellent price. Some wouldn't even deal with the good, having one dealer actually go to $6000 on it. We ended up getting a decent bottom line, if you consider that they all were crap, but it still boils down to there being a heck of a loss of value.

Of course, I ran the 2002 Corvette convertible with the standard option list and 62000 miles, and the new $47,975 convertible dropped to $25,000 - $27,000 depending on area for trade value.

Even more drop, but a much lower percentage. Anyway you go, these new cars today and dropping huge amounts for a few years of use.

I wonder if the million dollar showrooms have an impact on the car values?

I think the current problems most car manufacturers are having are based on the public's view of value, that the new ones are not a value. They are losing huge amounts in price as they age a few years. After a few years, repair prices are very high, due to the complexity of the cars. Many of them have systems that begin to fail about 4 or 5 years, and while all cars had failures after that many years and miles, cars of the past rarely had failures that were such a high price to fix.

My rant for the day, I guess. It just feels good to grip to someone since it seems like I'm banging my head against the wall with the dealers.

One good thing has come out of this. When we first got married, her method of trading cars was to go to her dealer, trade cars. Shopping around, why would you do that? They are all dealing with the same car, how could the price be better elsewhere? If he says bottom line is $10,000, then you pay $10,000. It took awhile to convince her that many dealers are crooks and that the $10,000 can become $9000 or $8000 with some negotiation. It has taken even longer to get her to see all dealers do not deal the same price.

Again, how I married her, I have no idea.

Snip

Now just think back a few years and it will all come back to you. If you think trading cars can be expensive try trading her in for a newer model.

That must be the reason I drive old stuff. I read "The Millionaire Next Door" a few years back and the average age car they buy is 3 years old, excepting Doctors and Lawyers which must maintain some sort of image. Anyway the point is WHY pay all that up front depreciation. Love my '92 six speed.

Dad I believe was talking earlier about WWII and post; re cost to repair. I have recently become interested in old "Bolts". "Bolts" pre 72 Chevy trucks (points, plugs and carburators; cheap and easy to work on). I would like a 46 (my birthdate) but will go as late as a 53. Want to restore one to original condition.

Wade, new vette owner (gave myself a 60 year old birthday present) '92 Red both tops, 6 speed with 55k miles '93 S-10 298k miles '89 Phord Van 144k miles

I used to average only a couple hundred dollars per car per year until I began to add her cars in. Usually I would gain enough on any corvettes I sold to offset any depreciation on vans and cars I drove. Her cars have shifted that a bit. One car hit $1000 per year, the next $1800 per year, and then this one is roughly $3800 per year.

I worked with some guys years ago that had an interesting philosophy on car payments. They usually bought the cheapest car they could find that ran. $100-$150. They figured if it ran a month, then that was their car payment, and still better than most. If it ran two months, their car payment was suddenly $50-$75 per month. If they got several months, the car payment began getting ridiculously low.

They knew also that at that price, they were bound to have car problems. But rather than fix it, they would sell it, often at the same $100 or so, and buy another. Putting money in for repairs was throwing it away. In the long run, they were averaging something like $10 a month for car payments.

I did the same philosophy to some extent with vans. I discovered you could buy most 6 year old or so Chevy vans for $2000 average. If you drove them a couple of years, you could still sell for roughly the same $2000. My flaw was that I usually kept them too long, and did spend money for the repairs.

I remember why I married her. Now if only she would.

Tom, if it's any reassurance that you are not alone, things work much the same in this household. For Mrs. PJ's car, any small hint that it might need to be touched by a repair guy is reason for trashing it. This also extends to car brands. If a given brand of car leaves her high and dry on the highway or fails to start in a parking lot, she is done with that brand of car--permanently. The only hope for the American car industry is that 15 years ago, my Toyota pickup failed her at the airport and she had to call AAA. So far, two GMCs have kept running.

Many women I've know, particularly Mama tend to develop emotional attachments to inanimate objects (hmmm,maybe I'm an inanimate object). This woman is the mother of all my kids, is still great on a date, earned her MBA fair and square; however,......

This week her land barge turned over 32K and is ready for a set of brake pads. I've got to 'grease' that car into the brake and tire guy with very little fuss lest she feel that it has to be replaced, and soon.

-- PJ '89 Hookercar '02 e-blu coupe

Snipped anything that distracts for this joke ;-))

Is it possible that it's just your object that is inanimate??

Hmmm, right now I've gotta hit the freeway and earn a buck -- but later in the day will sound reveille and check it out.