Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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My heart bleeds for them..... not.

Yes. Nasty stuff that it is. And Benzene which is even nastier. All in all it is a nasty, dirty fuel. Lets not even delve into its flamability and voltility or the picture becomes trully frightening.

They are better here and now. Next year petrol and diesels will be better still. In 2005 there will be nothing to choose between them in any significant exhaust pollutant. If diesels are dirty where you are, look towards your inferior fuel standards and your refiners who apparently are not capable of employing the same technology that they utilise here where you are.

Both petrol and diesels emit particulates. The larger particulates have been virtually eliminated in modern diesels while many new models now trap pm10's and prevent their emmission from the tail pipe to make them as clean as the petrol engines. To say that there is no acceptable level of particulates is totally inaccurate because it is not a neurotoxin, is nowhere near the same league as a carcinogen compared with the two petrol components which make the fuel itself toxic as well as the exhaust.

MTBE is made from toxic refinery products and is itself toxic and polluting, especially so to water supplies. Methanol can be produced from biodegradable crops and waste and it contains 35% oxygen. It is water soluble, biodegradeable, relitively non toxic and easily made from non oil products, which is why the oil industry does not like it and does its best to ensure it is not used by fair means and foul.

I resent that. You are an apologist who believes everything they tell you. Are you paid by them? Are you employed by them? Or are you as gullible and gormless as you sound?

Methanol was used until lobbied against and replaced by oil based toxic additives. I am not the ignorant or self righteous one here. Pot calling kettle black.
There, you'll notice that it

20th Century and its toxicity in fuel was well known in the Fifties yet the oil industry lobbied for its continued use, minimised its toxic impact and predicted dire consequences for engines if its use was discontinued until the last minute.

I am not an apologist for the industry or the Government, neither am I self righteous and therefore will not attempt to defend the use of lead either here or in the USA. You surely did not think I would? LOL

It is a scandal that the oil industry was allowed to use the most polluting way of avoiding pollution that they possibly could when clean alternatives already existed. Their history would indicate that this is typical behaviour. Your diesel fuel is another example of pathetic foot dragging.
Huw
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Methanol has the same effect as MTBE in pressuring fuel mileage .... downward.
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* Philip

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You mean Ethanol, not Methanol...
Ethanol can be made from corn; however, there currently isn't enough Ethanol production to satisfy every State that requires oxygenated fuel.
Had States required the use of Ethanol in the first place, instead of allowing MTBE, there wouldn't be a problem today. The States have only themselves to blame for MTBE contamination.
BTW, the reason that you get 10% less gas mileage on oxygenated fuel is that 10% of what is going through your engine isn't fuel. Think about it...
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Well, that is an overstatement. Recall alcohol burning dragsters?
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/met_general.html
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* Philip

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On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:18:41 -0000

of methanol (methanol was sold instead of bootleg vodka) last autumn. In addition methanol is chemically aggressive and not all plastic and rubber and metals are suitable for methanol transportation
Helar
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The casualties from a fire or from poisoning? If the latter, all alcohols are toxic, it's just that ethanol is the least toxic and can be tolerated in relative small quantities (ever tried drinking pure ethanol, e.g. near-pure 95%?).
It is thought that an intermediate product in the metabolism of alcohol gives rise to poisoning (including hangovers). Not sure how that is directly relevant to the use of an alcohol as a fuel/fuel additive. Will car get drunk or go blind?
What do they do in Brazil?
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They use huge amounts of arable land to plant sugar cane for ethanol production while children die from hunger...
Using fertile land to power automobiles is the dumbest thing a country can do.
As a Brazilian who's owned 3 alcohol-fueled cars, I have an idea of what I'm talking about.
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Would it be better if they lived without the income from sugar cane? What is the difference if the income comes from sugar cane for ethanol compared with helping to provide a bigger surplus of commodity food crops?
Huw
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sugar cane to power their cars instead, The money from it's sale cannot be used to buy food IF they don't grow the food to sell in the first place...
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There is no shortage of food. There is a shortage of income to buy food. The farmer will grow food if there is an income to be derived from it. The issue of growing industrial crops is not linked to food production other than both being cultivated by farmers. Your argument could also be used to attack the growing of all food for export.
Huw
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In

Using alcohol as a motor fuel, what are the primary three exhaust pollutants? I seem to recall formaldehyde being of concern.
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I don't know about the composition of alcohol-based fuel, but I can tell you that formaldehyde is an oxidation product of methanol. Thus you would get this if the fuel contains methanol and is incompletely burned.
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A cursory internet search confirmed your notion of problematic formaldehyde emissions from incomplete methanol "oxydation." So.... what about ethanol? Well.... seems there is some problem with ethanol too. The following link offers an overview of the pure ethanol experiment in Brazil from 1979 to the present.
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id 13810
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Aldehydes in general, whether it's ethanol or methanol. However, because the use of alcohol as fuel has a limited record, little is known about its effects (Huw, no, it's not a conspiracy by farmers to poison us).
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Much is known about most aldehides and formaldehide in particular. It is not pleasant stuff. As to its emmission from car exhausts, that is not an area in which I have any knowledge.
Huw
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Acetaldehyde (from ethanol) is not thought to lead to hangovers; aldehydes from higher alcohols are...
:-) DAS --
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Interesting change of reaction to some facts...

Have checked under your bed or closet for some frightening gas-monster? :-D

Better than their former self, yes. But still a far cry from the best gas engines, which, by the way, also get better and better.

I'm not there...
As I said, EU Diesel has 500ppm of sulfur, just like in the US. EU tried to lower it to 350ppm, but it only happened in Germany and in the UK. Most of the biggest countries in the EU, like France and Italy, still use an even worse Diesel, with up to 2000ppm of sulfur. So much for your European superiority...

Have you checked how much of each size each one emits?

Nope. Even FAP-equipped Diesel engines emit orders of magnitude more particulates than gas engines.

You may not know, but there's benzene in Diesel too... No, there are no nutty oxygenates, so don't try to drink it...

No, it's made from methane, a by-product of the refining process, but also present in natural gas.

Ahem, that would be ethanol. I see have no clue what you're talking about...
And let's not even start with using fertile land to produce fuel additives instead of food...

Who told you the things you accepted apparently at face value? Do you really believe in demonizing the oil industry? Do you also believe that Bill Gates made a pact with the devil?

Methanol is produced by oil refineries, but then again you have no clue what methanol is, believing one can grow it... :-)

Many substances are toxic and used without any problem, like the mercury in your fillings. Just because lead was a known toxic metal, noone knew that it would end up harming humans if burned in engines.
Your assumption of bad intentions in history is amazing, yet typical of Europeans, where it seems that the latest fad is to judge the past according to what is known currently. IOW, revisiosism.

Then try to defend the truth through facts, not your assumptions about others' intentions. Stop demonizing and start argumenting.

"The most polluting"? Like there were studies of MTBE in gasoline BEFORE it was chosen? How about you refraining from reversing the time line of the facts? Oh, the humanity...

Just check your facts straight. "My" Diesel is no worse than "yours", but you have to breath more of it due to more Diesel cars... ;-)
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These are different figures to ones you used elsewhere. The actual maximum in most of the USA is 0.05% Sulphur by weight IIRC which is indeed 500ppm. Ultra low sulphur fuel, which is the ONLY road diesel available in the UK has 10ppm on average From 2005 zero sulphur diesel fuel will be available. Australia has fuel with a maximum of 50ppm
The UK and most of Western Europe is now using ultra low sulphur fuel, having used low sulphur fuel for a number of years. The USA will not have ULS fuel generally available until 2006 at the earliest
US and Canadian fuel does vary markedly in sulphur content from quite low in California to very high from some Exxon refineries in the North. Paradoxically it will be these high sulphur refineries which will be first with low sulphur fuel and updating these is now at a fairly advanced stage.
Most of the biggest countries in the EU, like France and

No one uses this level of fuel contamination in Western Europe AFAIK. It has only been available for off highway equipment for the best part of a decade in the UK.
What is it with you and facts? Are you so insecure that you have to be bigger and better at everything? It is rather childish to claim that our diesel is as dirty as yours when it is plainly not. Again I have to ask why you appear to be an apologist for your oil industry? Are you employed by them as a propagandist?

Yes indeed. The latest ones from certain manufacturers are about at the same level. Older diesels produce more particulates of a greater size. There is nothing to hide. Do you think I would deny that older generation diesels and some in current production produce more soot? I am not an apologist for anything or anyone LOL.

Not compared with latest direct injection petrol engines they don't.

Benzene in diesel is at a trace level at most. Benzene in petrol is also on the decline but is certainly still a fairly major constituent of the fuel and needs some trick vacuum nozzles to prevent it poisoning the driver filling the tank LOL.
No, there are

So methane is not toxic? Is MTBE biodegradable? No. Is it an aid to leaching? Yes. Is it confirmed as a major polluter which is being cleared up at the cost of billions? Yes.

Slight error there. Only of spelling accuracy though, not of fact.

Short of land and food in the USA are you? ROTFLOL.

Another set of fatuous and plain silly statements. Not one of the questions answered though.

It was well known decades before it was phased out. It was also known for decades that it was not needed in the fuel. It was only forced out by legislation which also phased in the catalytic converter.

Do you mean 'revisionism'? I had to point that out in view of you being such a stickler and all that LOL
Again your defence of what is known to be facts is amazing. You must be employed in a PR role, either directly or indirectly by the oil industry. Trying to discredit information is a basic tactic. Let me tell you that your attempts are pathetically amateurish.

I am doing quite well it seems. Well enough to get you to make quite absurd assertions and trying to deflect the argument at every turn.

Philip will confirm that it is *your* facts[LOL] which are not facts at all. What does that make them?
Huw
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Huw.... I accept wire transfers, VISA, and PayPal. ( :^D
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Sadly I have MasterCard. Oh well >sigh<
Huw
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