Re: Toyota struggles to stop runaway crisis

On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:

(Cross postings deleted, automatically) > > Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required > recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota. > Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold > numbers of injuries

Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.

Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not leave vehicle idling."

Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.

Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the millions of transmissions that were on the road.

On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse. As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 complaints about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, 1,710 injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 million owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or FMX transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 (1975)) that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a precise cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the proposed recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence, any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August 29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a few moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to find out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed, contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 times more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred.

98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and the problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator hoping to free it.

Moreover:

In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall of

10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford. Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, 1980, Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three and one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels to owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and DOT on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no support in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents, deaths and injuries.

By 1984:

Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except one (1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the case.

SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker.

> > "Hachiroku ????" wrote in message > news: snipped-for-privacy@e86.GTS... >> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:47:22 -0800, SMS wrote: >> >>> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with >>> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals >>> is only >>> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other >>> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly. >>> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history. >> >> >> And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard... >> >> >>
Reply to
Hachiroku
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wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though.

Reply to
jim beam

Wow. Talk about YABUTs. "If it were true..."?!?!?! You're kidding, right?

Who uses tha Parking Brake? Not many.

Ford refused to recall the vehicles that killed hundreds. See if you can find the video where a cop had to jump into a runaway Ford to stop it. It's hilarious. But not for the cop, the old woman that owned the car, and hundreds of people killed by faulty Ford transmissions.

YABUT, indeed.

Reply to
Hachiroku

Why, you're absolutely correct:

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Reply to
Hachiroku

YABUT!

How could you even forget about the Ford recall for transmissions? They talked it to death almost as much as the currect Toyota recall.

However, 'talked to death' is not a good phrase to use. Hundreds were killed and thousands injured thanks to Ford NOT fixing the transmissions, but issuing a sticker for the dash instead.

You want to make such a big deal about the Toyota recall. So far, I don't think anyone has died yet from the sticking pedal, and Toyota is fixing the problem.

Ford did nothing.

Reply to
Hachiroku

2500 accidents, 12 deaths, or something like that.
Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Kinda pales compared with over 300 deaths and thousands of injuries for a transmission Ford didn't want to (and DIDN'T) fix...

Reply to
Hachiroku

Do you think that makes the 12 dead people feel any better?

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Not at all. But Toyota is fixing the problem. Wonder if they could have gotten away with printing 2.3 million stickers...

Reply to
Hachiroku

In message , Ashton Crusher writes

Despite the total recall of 8 Toyota models throughout Europe there have only be four accidents sighted and no deaths, and Europe is much denser in population that any part of America that I've ever been to.

Reply to
Clive

Your wording is a little off, but the gist is correct. I think it said "apply the parkig brake if you leave your car idling" or something like that. It dfinitely didn't say the cars were prone to jumping out of park. My parents had Fords during that period and I remember the stickers coming in the mail. We tossed them out since we never had any problems with the transmissions jumping out of park and I don't know wanyone else who did either, but I am from a flat part of the country.

I assume almost all of your text was copied from the Center for Auto Safety, a trail lawyer sposored site. They have a vested interest in trumping up defects. Just imagine what CAS will have to say about Toyotas.......Get back to me in a year and tell me how fair they treated Toyota over this concern. Then think about fair they were to Ford back in the 80's. I bet if it had been Toyotas that were alleged to jump out of park, you would have been sure it was the Customer's fault.

Ed

Reply to
Ed White

My *OPINION* ?!?!?!?!

Wow.

Reply to
Hachiroku

Taking Joe's place, are we?

Even Ford admitted the transmissions could jump out of park at any time.

The 'recalled' the cars by issuing stickers. Wow.

I think it was THE BIGGEST and the most dangerous recall of all time, and it was 'fixed' with a sticker for the dashboard.

Reply to
Hachiroku

There's a big difference between cars that can't be controlled while you are driving them and cars that pop out of park. The Ford transmission problem was no more dangerous then all the cars that were produced for YEARS with automatic transmissions that didn't even have a PARK position but required you to put the emergency brake on.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

My 64 T-bird would easily pop out of park and did so a couple of times. It was due to worn parts in the steering column. Good, new parts would keep the thing in Park but the overall design of the detents was still crap and even after "fixing" it I never trusted it. Many other Ford products used the same design. It required that the lever be "actively" held in park, the stuff in the transmission seemed to naturally want to force itself out of park and the stuff in teh steering col prevented it from doing so. A much better design would be where the "active" effect is to keep it in park and require you to pull it out.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Reply to
Hachiroku

Except that with the PARK position people stopped using the EB and over

300 were killed...
Reply to
Hachiroku

Which is why sending them a sticker was an appropriate "fix".

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

In message , Ashton Crusher writes

It's not a fix, it's a warning that the vehicle could (and frequently was) dangerous. A fix is to correct the fault so that the danger no longer exists.

Reply to
Clive

Well, it was one of the cable news stations again today: a tape of someone calling into 911 saying they couldn't stop their car and were about to approach an intersection.

So basically they have time to call 911 and complain to an operator but aren't smart enough to shut their damn car off or put it in neutral, and the media aren't telling people to do this.

Reply to
bwala kulusu

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